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RWR- answer from a real mig-29 pilot how it works


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Hallo to all

 

As you probably know last weekend in Kecskemet was a huge aero miting and there was also the possiblity to seat and take a photo in the cockpit of a Mig-29 and to spend few words with the present pilots.

 

As i know there was once a thread regarding how the SPO Berzoya really works, it was a debate if the additional pitch tone of missile launced at the aircraft is made when the enemy really fires at you or it is just a matter of signal strength (distance). I asked this and the answer was that the RWR makes the additional signal (missile launch warning) when the signal strength of the enemy radar is big enough. So, even if the missile was not launched the RWR will trigger the additional tone since based on the signal strength and on the memory data the enemy is the launching parameters. The pilot said " at a certian distance i have to assume that he could launch the missile" and the RWR, by making this additional tone, warns me that i am in the launching parameters of the enemy aircraft. So, it would be nice that this feature would be added in Flaming Cliffs.

 

:smartass:

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Whatever is realistic, will be done in BS.

 

In FC not. ;]

 

Why?

There's nothing friendly about "friendly fire"

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I asked this and the answer was that the RWR makes the additional signal (missile launch warning) when the signal strength of the enemy radar is big enough. So, even if the missile was not launched the RWR will trigger the additional tone since based on the signal strength and on the memory data the enemy is the launching parameters. The pilot said " at a certian distance i have to assume that he could launch the missile" and the RWR, by making this additional tone, warns me that i am in the launching parameters of the enemy aircraft. So, it would be nice that this feature would be added in Flaming Cliffs.

 

This is not a only a feature of the respective RWR, but also of the launching platform and launched missile (= radar behavior). So for RL behavior, you not only need accurate RWR, but also missiles and radars.

Spoiler

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Why?

 

IMO It's time to focus on future product - DCS. LO has already been highly corrected by ED. It is good in own segment of games. I doubt if ED wants to spend more and more time for LO, where future product needs resources.

Realistic product = DCS


Edited by Boberro

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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Hallo to all

 

As you probably know last weekend in Kecskemet was a huge aero miting and there was also the possiblity to seat and take a photo in the cockpit of a Mig-29 and to spend few words with the present pilots.

 

As i know there was once a thread regarding how the SPO Berzoya really works, it was a debate if the additional pitch tone of missile launced at the aircraft is made when the enemy really fires at you or it is just a matter of signal strength (distance). I asked this and the answer was that the RWR makes the additional signal (missile launch warning) when the signal strength of the enemy radar is big enough. So, even if the missile was not launched the RWR will trigger the additional tone since based on the signal strength and on the memory data the enemy is the launching parameters. The pilot said " at a certian distance i have to assume that he could launch the missile" and the RWR, by making this additional tone, warns me that i am in the launching parameters of the enemy aircraft. So, it would be nice that this feature would be added in Flaming Cliffs.

 

:smartass:

 

My guess is either the pilot is wrong or Russian equipment is not very clever made. In american RWR, launch warning pops up when a enemy radar change his sweep pattern from search to single target lock. It's easy to differenciate between both because in case of a search radar the RWR only recieves a short radar signal whilst in a lock the radar signal is fixed on you. This means that a Launch warning doesn't neccesary mean a missile launch but someone has the wish of launch something if he has the chance. This also means that if your enemy is using a TWS mode to launch a missile at you, you don't recieve any launch warning at all, because the radar pattern is the same as search pattern from the RWS point of view.

 

Regards!!


Edited by amalahama



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Yes, exactly like that. Maybe i didn't write it correctly. Of course the enemy must be in STT mode (lock on) and then the RWR will trigger the warning( when the signal in STT is strong enough) regardless if the missile was fired or not. Of course in search mode will not trigger anything. Probably, but this is my guess, when the AMRAAM goes active the RWR will sound the missile warning signal....

 

:smartass:

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You will get a change from beep beep beep to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep when the radar goes from search to lock (just like in LO), and you will get an additional change in pitch when the signal strenght goes above threshold.

Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.

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... have you operated a real US or Russian RWR?

 

My guess is either the pilot is wrong or Russian equipment is not very clever made. In american RWR, launch warning pops up when a enemy radar change his sweep pattern from search to single target lock. It's easy to differenciate between both because in case of a search radar the RWR only recieves a short radar signal whilst in a lock the radar signal is fixed on you. This means that a Launch warning doesn't neccesary mean a missile launch but someone has the wish of launch something if he has the chance. This also means that if your enemy is using a TWS mode to launch a missile at you, you don't recieve any launch warning at all, because the radar pattern is the same as search pattern from the RWS point of view.

 

Regards!!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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... have you operated a real US or Russian RWR?

 

That is as is modelled in every combat flight simulator I can remember. And it has more sense to me that only a signal strength threshold for launch warning. Come on GG I know you know I'm right, don't be itchy :P

 

Regards!!



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Yeah, yeah :P

 

The important thing is how it actually works, and the fact that you learned something new might just mean that no one knew any better before. ;)

 

RWR's are VERY classified. They are, in general, modeled based on a lot of guess-work. To give you an idea ... the symbol tables alone are so classified I don't think you can even take them out of the vault.

 

The software is classified as well (this concerns more modern designs, probably) so even if you have hardware designs, you can't really tell how it's using the data though you can tell with some certainty what it is NOT using.

 

As for making sense, R-27ET had a datalink because it 'made sense' ... except it did not, because that assumption was based on a premise that does not logically follow (ie. we're only changing the seeker!) ... the trouble with this is that we don't really know what's being changed, and we don't know what the fire control computer does when it detects a specific type of weapon (or at least, we did not, now we know a bit more).

 

That is as is modelled in every combat flight simulator I can remember. And it has more sense to me that only a signal strength threshold for launch warning. Come on GG I know you know I'm right, don't be itchy :P

 

Regards!!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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As i said i just wanted to share the info that i got from a source (pilot) that should be "quite reliable" :)

 

It would be just "nice to have", of course we can live without that, FC is still a great game. This info maybe useful for some future patch or new project, because it would be the the first one to have this feature, at least as i remember, no pc-based flight sim has this feature that apparently is true.

 

:thumbup:

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Thanks for sharing, though I don't think FC will be modified for this at this point.

 

You are correct, it will be useful, though I think ED will also want to verify independently :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Suhoj27 - Thank you for the info.

So if I understand you correctly; the Russian RWR gives a warning if a radar, that is illuminating a MiG29, changes from TWS to STT mode or if the illuminating radar reaches a certain signal strength (I.e. range.).

To me it sound like a good concept seeing that aircraft like the F15 can launch missiles in TWS mode.

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No, both. Ie. if STT + Range, then it gives a warning.

 

It makes little sense to issue a missile warning vs. air intercept radars in search mode, even considering the threat of TWS.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Thanks.

 

Thought that with "additional", he meant launch warnings for two different situations.

 

Then (In my opinion.); an aircraft that can launch in TWS mode armed with AIM7 Sparrows (Not to mention AIM120s.) is a very frightning oponent.

If you do not see smoke trails (Because motors have burned out.) you will fly right into the damn things!

Unless of course, if you treat any aircraft that is within launch range as if it has launched on you.

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Thanks.

 

Thought that with "additional", he meant launch warnings for two different situations.

 

Then (In my opinion.); an aircraft that can launch in TWS mode armed with AIM7 Sparrows (Not to mention AIM120s.) is a very frightning oponent.

If you do not see smoke trails (Because motors have burned out.) you will fly right into the damn things!

Unless of course, if you treat any aircraft that is within launch range as if it has launched on you.

 

AIM-7 can't be launched in TWS mode because they need a radar beam to ride into. AIM-120 are however quite "stealthy", the only launch sign is given when they pass to active mode, a few second before you blow up and dive into the ground :)

 

That's why nowadays for missile launch detection, fighters, bombers and other military aircrafts trust more in other kind of sensors (like IR, UV or Radar active) than in legacy RWR warfare systems.

 

Regards!!



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This is not necessarily true, though I've only got rumors to go on which I'd like to confirm eventually.

 

AIM-7 can't be launched in TWS mode because they need a radar beam to ride into.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Amalahama:

Read years ago (Back in the 80's, I think. But I am pretty sure.) that F15 and F14 can launch on multiple targets. That was before AIM120 entered service that I read it. Only recently (Couple of years ago.) on Lockon forums did I read that AIM7 can only be launched at one target at a time.

 

Also, if you launch multiple AIM54s or AIM120s, they still have to be guided before they go active. But then again it is not just the seeker head that is the only responsible part of a missile for being guided by the launch aircraft. I do not know a lot about avionics.

 

Saw Dogfights on History Channel where three MiG23s were downed (First Gulf War.) head on by F15s without the MiG23s doing any kind of evasive maneuvers. F15s launched one AIM7 each though, if I remember correctly. Also heard that MiG23 have to shut off RWR when it uses its radar. So situation could have been caused by other things than missiles being launched in TWS mode.

 

Basically what I know about the subject is too limited to make a decision. But then I have to assume that AIM7 can only be launched one at a time and not in TWS mode; because I can not find any hard evidence for what I have read in a “coffee table book.”.:huh:


Edited by FanBoy2006.01
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Amalahama:

Read years ago (Back in the 80's, I think. But I am pretty sure.) that F15 and F14 can launch on multiple targets. That was before AIM120 entered service that I read it. Only recently (Couple of years ago.) on Lockon forums did I read that AIM7 can only be launched at one target at a time.

 

I've seen a claim of two, but without context it is meaningnless unfortunately.

Also, if you launch multiple AIM54s or AIM120s, they still have to be guided before they go active. But then again it is not just the seeker head that is the only responsible part of a missile for being guided by the launch aircraft. I do not know a lot about avionics.
The funny part is that both of those missiles use different mehanization for their mid-course updates! :) The AMRAAM uses data-link, the AIM-54 used a SARH-to-ARH method whereby it would home in on the reflection of F-14 radar energy from the target until it was close enough for ARH. In this way, it could fly to the target while the radar was in TWS mode, since terminal guidance was not required.

 

Saw Dogfights on History Channel where three MiG23s were downed (First Gulf War.) head on by F15s without the MiG23s doing any kind of evasive maneuvers. F15s launched one AIM7 each though, if I remember correctly. Also heard that MiG23 have to shut off RWR when it uses its radar. So situation could have been caused by other things than missiles being launched in TWS mode.
There were repeat shots, at least one that I know of. This is more of a case of sparrows dropping off the rails dead, or going stupid in-flight.

 

Basically what I know about the subject is too limited to make a decision. But then I have to assume that AIM7 can only be launched one at a time and not in TWS mode; because I can not find any hard evidence for what I have read in a “coffee table book.”.:huh:
In general this is the correct approach, yes, because there is no real evidence to the contrary. There exists a suspicious passage about guiding 2 sparrows it in an APG-63 maintenance manual, but that is it. In fact, the initial AMRAAM capability was single-shot also. Probably has to do with the number of data-link channels. That was upgraded before the AMRAAM was officially fielded though.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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FanBoy2006 ; Yes, it should be like GGTharos wrote in short: STT+range=launched missile warning, regardless if the missile had been fired or not.

 

GGTharos; I fully understand that there is little possibility to see this feature in FC, but i really hope that ED or the poeple who will or are working on future projects will have this feature underlined, at least to crosscheck with other sources. I believe that you can get in contact with reliable sources far easier than i can :) and, as i said, it would be something "new" in PC Flight Simulations and would deeper the reality factor even more.

 

As i understood the spo-15 rwr and american analogues works on the same principles.

 

Another info, a little bit of topic but i think that it can be of interest: After asking the pilot(cca40+ years) regarding the rwr, he alone said that rwr doesn't not work if he turns on the radar (at least in the front hemisphere). Citate; " i can not see on rwr enemy's signals if i turn on the radar"....Now, since there was no more time for additional explanations, is very difficult to judge if this is just a failure of their Migs or this is a "normal" feature of the Mig-29....This info is more difficult to take for garanted, since i read once that mig-29 pilots had no problems in seeing each other in heads on intercepts on rwr....Unfortunately there was no time for further sub-questions and explanations...:(


Edited by Suhoj27
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Im a bit confused now. Would the mig-29 rwr detect a launch and sound the launch warning or would the launch tone automatically sound when you get to a certain range? is the mig-29/su-27 rwr accurate in lock on?

I am the alpha and the omega

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