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F-15 Eagle - what's happened?!


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Before 1.1 I kinda classed myself as a BVR killing machine in the Eagle, now I'm getting nailed by part timers! It's really starting to get at me. Have the missile capabilities and warning systems of the F-15 been greatly reduced? I expected change with 1.1 but geez, it's like starting again with the F-15 for me and I don't understand why. I'm now regularly getting hit with 3 second warnings and nearly all my missiles are missing within very good firing range.

 

It's obviously time for a re-evalutation of my tactics, I just don't know where to start.

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well, ecm is a much bigger player now. Dont leave it switched on all the time as this leaves you wide open to a HOJ shot and you may have very little or no warning about it. There have been numerous complaints about the Amraam performance, search the forums to see, I wont go into it here.

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Hi jaws,

Your absolutely right. First of all a f-15 HOJ shot is not passive this means the enemy knows you have him locked and he knows when you have fired. This is a huge bug that has been posted about time after time on this forum. Adversly to this a russian plane firing a HOJ shot gives no warning so basically you dont know when they have fired on you they know when you have fired on them. Rule of thumb is dont use ecm unless for defensive purposes.

This brings up another bug the tws does not work properly they get a warning as well so its useless.

The aim 120c does not track properly it will fly off the rail on a HOJ shot and usually start to track the closest target.

Burn through has been reduced to 10 -12 miles.

There is a lot of work to do on the eagle.

Try this though take a mig fly low switch to close combat vertical scan mode and you will lock a target as far as 40km out thats 24 miles.

The game is bugged and needs fixing.

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It's not the AIM120 ... it's ARHs, period.

 

You shouldn't have to move the missiles alider at -all- ... the 5-% position *is* he most realistic as it produces the necessary drift vectors for the missile.

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GG, maybe the 50% offers some more realism features than any other slider config, but the Pk/hit rate, IMO, is more realistic at 100% than at 50%. And in the end, its what the missile hits that counts, not what it does, especially in a sim.

 

If I have to wade through a flood of Alamos and Adders or otherwise risk my wingmen and my jet to get to a good launch point for my AMRAAMs, and they miss 90% anyway, that, IMO, is neither fun nor realistic.

 

And its not just the AIM-120 - the R-77 performs just as poorly.

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GG, maybe the 50% offers some more realism features than any other slider config, but the Pk/hit rate, IMO, is more realistic at 100% than at 50%. And in the end, its what the missile hits that counts, not what it does, especially in a sim.

 

If I have to wade through a flood of Alamos and Adders or otherwise risk my wingmen and my jet to get to a good launch point for my AMRAAMs, and they miss 90% anyway, that, IMO, is neither fun nor realistic.

 

And its not just the AIM-120 - the R-77 performs just as poorly.

 

I agree, ED may have simulated more stuff in 50% but the balance off all the factors produces a lower PK that I expected. At 100% it has a hit ratio as it should be. Even then they are far from being zeus thunderbolts.

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GG, maybe the 50% offers some more realism features than any other slider config, but the Pk/hit rate, IMO, is more realistic at 100% than at 50%. And in the end, its what the missile hits that counts, not what it does, especially in a sim.

 

I have to disagree. In a -simulator- reality is simulated, thus requiring the world to act realistic. So 5x% is the most correct slider position IMO.

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I have to disagree. In a -simulator- reality is simulated, thus requiring the world to act realistic. So 5x% is the most correct slider position IMO.

 

Think about what you just said, and what I just said. In a -simulator-, -everything- is supposed to be simulated. Right now, all the bad stuff (ECM, chaff, etc.) is modelled, while the stuff a missile can do to overcome the bad stuff are not. Thus, overall, reality isn't simulated :rolleyes:

 

In any case, if you want a REAL, reality-is-absolutely-simulated simulation, why are you playing Lock On? There's a really cool simulator, called Falcon 4, that simulates everything to the Nth degree. But even there, AIM-120s usually *hit* their targets, so getting inside the no-escape zone and firing off your missiles actually become *fun*, a challenge, instead of the frustrating experience it currently is in LOMAC.

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I think the F-15 is less deadly in this sim as it is in RL. I cannot accept that this plane is so inept as depicted here, but I also do love a challenge.

 

Play balance is an issue, and I'm not convinced play balance has been compromised at this point.

 

Still, would be good to model things as exact as reasonable.

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Actually, F4's missile simulation ain't quite all that up to snuff either ... even they have buggy actives and not so great physics ;)

 

LOMAC's missiles need the sensor modelling fixed up first and foremost, but I'd say the kinematics (part of which is what the slider controls) are a notch above F4's.

 

So far most of the AMRAAMs which I've seen defeated in LOMAC it was from a combination of countermeasures and maneuvering (ie. ecm+chaff+kinematic defeat) within the NEZ, while at farther ranges it can be purely kinematic. In this respect it's diffrent from F4 in two things:

 

F4's kinematics are crappier (resulting in much longer ranges for missiles)

F4's sensor modelling for the modern actives rejects CM's way, waaaaay too easily ... IMHO, of course.

 

My point is: I think LOMAC's AMRAAMs ARE probably somewhat undermodelled. On the other hand, I think F4's are OVERmodelled.

 

Also, very often just about anything that I catch inside of 7-8nm usually ends up toast when a 120 comes off the rails, with the Pk rising sharply at 6nm or under. Seems fairly relistic from a kinematic standpoint to me. Very few targets have escaped my 120's at those ranges.

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Also, very often just about anything that I catch inside of 7-8nm usually ends up toast when a 120 comes off the rails, with the Pk rising sharply at 6nm or under. Seems fairly relistic from a kinematic standpoint to me. Very few targets have escaped my 120's at those ranges.

 

The whole point of the AMRAAM is to kill things at ranges OVER 6 miles. Any Lock On missile performs well at such close ranges provided they can fly that far - MICA, AIM-7/54/120, R-27R/ER/T/ET/37/77, etc. It's how they perform outside 6 miles that counts, and currently, I cannot say much for either the AIM-120 or the R-77 outside this range.

 

And in Single Player, against AI with their uber chaff, the AIM-120 misses more often at 6 nm than it does at BVR ranges. And that's *bad*.

 

And its not that F4's kinematics are crappier - its just that nobody has bothered to change them yet (SP4.X might've, not sure), probably because of a lack of knowledge or time. If you looked through the DAT files, you'd realize that it actually is really quite easy to alter these DAT files to much more realistic values. I'm sure if someone brings up the issue, FreeFalcon or the F4 SP team would be on it right away.

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No, it's not easy. The engine itself is missing parts required to make F4's missiles more realistic. You can adjust the missiles but they'll never behave as realistically as they could in the sense that F4 does not 'have it all'. Same as LOMAC, different part of the engine and reasons.

 

As for AI, I really don't care about the AI. At all!

 

And frankly, unless someone can show me figures or a diagram of how the 120 performs at -any- range, I don't particularely care to dispute ED's representation of it, other than to say that the whole shebang is more likely to be between F4 and LOMAC rather than either one. INsofar as I'm concerned, any player not doing his due dilligence will be hit by AMRAAMs, otherwise they'll likely dodge them, and that's fine by me - works the same on pretty much everything in LOMAC.

 

And BTW, when F4's missiles WERE adjusted to be 'more realistic' everyone bitched, moaned and cried about how short the range became.

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Play balance.

 

I don't feel 1.1 has any serious inbalance so far, but I'm still checking it all out for myself.

 

Not that I'd know better as far as how things really work.

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Think about what you just said, and what I just said. In a -simulator-, -everything- is supposed to be simulated. Right now, all the bad stuff (ECM, chaff, etc.) is modelled, while the stuff a missile can do to overcome the bad stuff are not. Thus, overall, reality isn't simulated :rolleyes:

Yeah, but thats the bad stuff dude. Because there is good stuff on this sim, that is simulated properly, and one of those things is activated when the missle effectiveness bar is at +/- 50%.

 

In any case, if you want a REAL, reality-is-absolutely-simulated simulation, why are you playing Lock On? There's a really cool simulator, called Falcon 4, that simulates everything to the Nth degree. But even there, AIM-120s usually *hit* their targets, so getting inside the no-escape zone and firing off your missiles actually become *fun*, a challenge, instead of the frustrating experience it currently is in LOMAC.

Well currently im not playing lock on, waiting for 1.1 . And by the way, just because a sim doesnt model everything like reality does it mean that its not a sim? :confused: I find your argument...stupid. But hey, keep it up rofl...

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This place is great! Instead of kicking the dog when I'm pissed, I can always come here for a good fight!

 

Awesome!

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Yeah, but thats the bad stuff dude. Because there is good stuff on this sim, that is simulated properly, and one of those things is activated when the missle effectiveness bar is at +/- 50%....Well currently im not playing lock on, waiting for 1.1 . And by the way, just because a sim doesnt model everything like reality does it mean that its not a sim? I find your argument...stupid. But hey, keep it up rofl...

 

My argument's stupid? Haha...at least I can read a message. I blatantly said that not enough of the "good" things are simulated to counter-balance the bad, but hey, english doesn't come easily to everyone I guess.

 

If -everything- would be simulated, wouldn't that be an alter-dimension of reality?

 

I meant everything as in all aspects, not every single detail. If chaff is simulated, chaff rejection should be simulated to some degree, not left entirely out of the equation. Lock On isn't as bad, but it's close. The new V1.1 ECM model is very well done and thorough, with great detail and stuff, but on the other hand, the scripted behaviour of missiles tracking their targets is left largely unchanged from V1.02.

 

No, it's not easy. The engine itself is missing parts required to make F4's missiles more realistic. You can adjust the missiles but they'll never behave as realistically as they could in the sense that F4 does not 'have it all'. Same as LOMAC, different part of the engine and reasons.

 

F4's models the FM of missiles *exactly* as it does the FM of planes - with drag/thrust at different Mach, altitude, seeker gimbal limits, etc. - a whole bunch of things that Lock On currently doesn't. I'm NOT saying it's perfect, just that the room for improvement is there. If you are saying that F4 is incapable of good physical modelling of missiles, you might as well say that F4 doesn't FM realistically. And that, AFAIK, is impossible to say unless you actually flew an F-16.

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No, but I can tell you that the F4 FM isn't what the LOMAC FM is. And even with the 'scripted' missiles, LOMAC does better for modelling the kinematics of the missiles ;)

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No, it's not better - just different. F4 does somethings a lot better than LOMAC, and vice versa. For example, in F4, the speed of the launching aircraft actually matters - your missile will arrive on target with significantly more energy than before. LOMAC, there's not too much of that ;)

 

Anyway, this thread wasn't one of missile kinematics. Maybe we can start telling the starter of this thread how to win BVR, hmm? Or is it really a lost cause?

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Guest DeathAngelBR
I think the F-15 is less deadly in this sim as it is in RL. I cannot accept that this plane is so inept as depicted here, but I also do love a challenge.

 

Play balance is an issue, and I'm not convinced play balance has been compromised at this point.

 

Still, would be good to model things as exact as reasonable.

 

The day an F-15C pilot faces a good Flanker pilot in RL, the Eagle WILL LOSE. So *ehem* it's not deadly as you think it is.

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No, it's not better - just different. F4 does somethings a lot better than LOMAC, and vice versa. For example, in F4, the speed of the launching aircraft actually matters - your missile will arrive on target with significantly more energy than before. LOMAC, there's not too much of that ;)

 

Anyway, this thread wasn't one of missile kinematics. Maybe we can start telling the starter of this thread how to win BVR, hmm? Or is it really a lost cause?

 

 

No, you can definitely win the BVR fight - or at least degenerate it into WVR (at which point the opponent will have a have tought time escaping the 120's) ... insofar as online is concerned, anyway - I don't actually bother with AI, but I've noticed their magical ability to ditch missiles.

 

In general you could have two people of relatively high skill expend their entire BVR loadout on each other and not hit at all.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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