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30mm AP can't kill tanks?


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I'm new to the sim and was messing the "Instant Action" mission on fake realism. Anyway the first tanks you encounter in the valley on that mission appear to be T-72's (not sure of type though). Anyway, I was ~600m high at their 5'oclock. The laser rangefinder showed that I was 1200m away. Anyway I dumped ~80 rounds of AP 30mm into the top rear of one of the tanks. I did it in 5-10 round bursts. With most of them impacting the tank. It did not seem to hurt it at all, no smoke or anything. I switched to the ATGM to finish them off.

 

It seems to only takes 5-15 rounds to kill a BMP from almost any angle. I didn't think it was possible for a tank to withstand a salvo of 30mm AP on the top of the engine block. But I'm no armor expert... Is it the fake setting that causes this, or are tanks much more heavily armored on the rear than I thought?

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I'd say that basically, a 30mm cannon isn't a big event for an MBT. Even at their weak areas their armor is heavier than a BMP at it's best.

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...or are tanks much more heavily armored on the rear than I thought?

 

Apparently so.

 

IFVs and APCs like the BRDM and BMP are much lighter than MBTs due to much weaker armor and smaller weapons. As a very basic rule, IFVs and APCs are designed to transport troops into battle quickly and provide cover against other light tanks, infantry and choppers. They rather rely on speed and agility than on armor.

An MBT is much heavier because of their weapons and armor. Their armor again is what they have to rely on in battle.

 

In theory you could still damage the engine or tracks with 30mm ammo, but these complex damage-effects are not modeled in this simulation. You can still kill a tank with your cannon. You just have to get really close and fire a lot of rounds.

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Anyway, I was ~600m high at their 5'oclock. The laser rangefinder showed that I was 1200m away. Anyway I dumped ~80 rounds of AP 30mm into the top rear of one of the tanks. I did it in 5-10 round bursts. With most of them impacting the tank. It did not seem to hurt it at all, no smoke or anything. I switched to the ATGM to finish them off.

 

Hi Shrike, you need to get in a bit closer to get enough rounds on target.

And some times you cant trust the pipper. Damage is not modled for ground vehicles only their death throes.

Its some thing like 80% of rounds fall within a 6m target area @1200m

 

Cheers Shad

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T72straf2.thumb.jpg.1255be6f916a6d616276d1ed28031c09.jpg

T72straf3.thumb.jpg.83f4b059c9cfb26264708a337cabe929.jpg


Edited by ShadowVonChadwick

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I'd say that basically, a 30mm cannon isn't a big event for an MBT. Even at their weak areas their armor is heavier than a BMP at it's best.

 

30mm will do alot of damage to any vehicle the difference between a BMP and T72 is that the crew would have a better chance of survival thats not saying the tracks and everything else will get damaged. It also depends on what type of 30mm(Apache, A-10, KA50) and what type of Ammo its firing(AP, HE etc). With 7.62mm it might sound like rain outside but I'd hate to hear what its like to be on the recieveing end of any 30mm.:music_whistling:

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Ive finished off MBT with AP rounds on a few occasions. Generally I wont attak one with guns unless Im out of other ammo and its already been partly damaged i.e. 1 vihker hit or some rocket hits. I also fire when Im about 1000m to target and I still have to dump about 1/3 of my AP inventory to finish it off.

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Obviously, yes SUBS17, it does depend on which 30mm. The one on the Ka is more effective than the one on the Apache, but it has nothing on the A10 30mm. The A10 has both better ammunition, greater velocity and much larger volume of fire.

 

The biggest issue is that the engine cannot currently simulate a Mission Kill properly - so you cannot for example land a few rounds just right on the tracks and make it immobile until serviced. However, I do believe they get reduced effectiveness from partial damage - so an MBT that has taken some 30mm hits (but not blown) will not aim as well as a fresh one.

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Careful now ShadowVonChadwick, The A-10's 30mm has a much different effect than the Ka-50's 30mm. The A-10's round is larger, heavier, and faster than the Ka-50's, especially when the A-10 has forward momentum (flying)

 

I assumed he was in the A10, as 1.2Km is a bit close to MBT in a BS, & then have time to switch to Vikhr before sucking on one of its shells.

And if he was on the move I doubt he would have time to unload 80 slugs from the 2A42 thats about 16+ seconds (Rate of fire (sustained): 300 r/min).

 

Actually in BS/FC2 the 2A42 slug is heaver and faster (980m/sec & 0.39kg) compared to the A10s 950m/s @ 0.36kg (add 140m/s for A10 @500km/hr) And both sims use the same piercing_mass calculation. What the A10 has is 7 barrels and hence a greater rate of fire @ around 4000 rpm.

 

But yes I will be carefull........Kind regards ..Shad


Edited by ShadowVonChadwick

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ShadowVonChadwick, I doubt he was flying the A-10.

 

At least I'm not able to fire aimed 5-10 shots in 8 bursts in an A-10A. With realigning and aiming to fire them at the same distance and direction. At least it would take me a lot longer than just 16 seconds+.

 

Besides that, he posted in the DCS-forum, not in the LockOn-part.

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Yep I see that now.....Cheers

 

Out of curiosity I set up a TE with some T72,T80s and T72s as static objects.

 

I almost forgot how to fly the BS... about a 100 rounds each would do both. Got bowen out of the sky a few times though.

 

Static T72s I couldn,t kill with guns though


Edited by ShadowVonChadwick

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I assumed he was in the A10, as 1.2Km is a bit close to MBT in a BS, & then have time to switch to Vikhr before sucking on one of its shells.

And if he was on the move I doubt he would have time to unload 80 slugs from the 2A42 thats about 16+ seconds (Rate of fire (sustained): 300 r/min).

 

But yes I will be carefull........Kind regards ..Shad

 

I will run all the way up to the MBT at a 100meters with a gun run if I have to. Its risky but in my experience if you keep some speed and altitude on you, I rarely get hit with a tank shell. When I do get hit with one its cause I was hovering and ignored the LWR. (thats cause Im stupid and hope itll go away on its own) Most of the time my biggest threat with them is the machine gunner dude. I find APCs and M2A to be much bigger threat and try to keep my distance. They shoot missles and their main gun does a lot of damage fast.

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hope it wasnt said before...

 

but remember that the Americans are using depleted uranium, for their anti-armour projectiles. Cause of its higher density than any steel, its capeable of penetrating almost any armour.

 

I believe in the fact that the A-10 was built around that mightiest of all gatlings!

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but remember that the Americans are using depleted uranium, for their anti-armour projectiles. Cause of its higher density than any steel

 

The russians use DU ammunition too, although they won't tell in what ammunition. Furthermore, the alternative for AP rounds would most likely be tungsten, which has even higher density than DU (though the difference is small, 19.25 vs 19.1).

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or for that matter your microwave. After all you directly radiate your food on a daily basis lol.

 

UAARGHHHH for the sake of your physics knowledge, hope that was a joke. ;)

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

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UAARGHHHH for the sake of your physics knowledge, hope that was a joke. ;)

 

Every time I use a microwave I get a speeding ticket the next day, not good for your health I tell you !!

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Every time I use a microwave I get a speeding ticket the next day, not good for your health I tell you !!

 

Is this for real or a joke, cause i can't tell :huh:

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

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Is this for real or a joke, cause i can't tell :huh:

 

Sorry

You sound like one of my kids, they laugh cause the jokes are so bad:doh:


Edited by ShadowVonChadwick

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This.

 

Shooting up a tank up the tailpipe with 30mm should usually render it ineffective in some way, but like EtherealN pointed out, those kill mechanisms are not simulated, and I don't think they're easy to simulate either.

Take a look at steel beasts pro - they do is pretty well and they have demonstrated that it is a pretty complex affair. You either do it right, or you end up with vehicles that can be too hard to too easy to kill. A flight combat sim is more concerned with modeling aircraft than ground units - just as in SB PRO the air unit modeling is pitiful by comparison to AI in combat flight sims.

 

The biggest issue is that the engine cannot currently simulate a Mission Kill properly - so you cannot for example land a few rounds just right on the tracks and make it immobile until serviced. However, I do believe they get reduced effectiveness from partial damage - so an MBT that has taken some 30mm hits (but not blown) will not aim as well as a fresh one.

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Do you think that a probabilistic method of dealing with non-overkill weapon-target interactions be better than the average damage method that DCS:BS uses now be better?

 

Right now you have to shoot 2 Vikhrs at an M1A1 no matter what. Wouldn't it be cool if it was a probabilistic thing (or perhaps a mixed health_points/probability) system where it might take 1 or 3 hits?

 

Mobility, firepower, or other types of non-complete "mission kills" would be pretty cool too, even if it was very basic and non-locational.

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^^Plus, you can hit Abrams' top of the turret with a vikhr. One more reason for them to tweak the damage model as it would certainly kill the tank.

 

My biggest problem though, is the power of 30mm HE rounds. Sometimes it takes 1 or 2 to kill an armored vehicle or even tear down a whole house.

 

I can only hope they'll do something about this in the upcoming patch.

If not, I can only hope I will hope they do something about this in the upcoming patch after this upcoming patch has been released.

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Do you think that a probabilistic method of dealing with non-overkill weapon-target interactions be better than the average damage method that DCS:BS uses now be better?

 

No, I think you need both. Whether you use average/hitpoint type damage or probability (or better: both in some manner) you need to have hit locations ... engine boxes, guns, fire control systems, crews, etc etc. Even if you wanted to just apply the damage at random instead of locating the hit itself you would somehow need to model engine, tracks, turrent mechanism, individual weapons, and crew as some sort of distinct, damageable systems.

This is not possible with the current code. Maybe some time in the future.

 

Right now you have to shoot 2 Vikhrs at an M1A1 no matter what. Wouldn't it be cool if it was a probabilistic thing (or perhaps a mixed health_points/probability) system where it might take 1 or 3 hits?

 

Mobility, firepower, or other types of non-complete "mission kills" would be pretty cool too, even if it was very basic and non-locational.

 

Right, see above.

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I still don't understand why such knowledge is not being sold between simulation developers of non-competing companies e.g. ED could buy all the info needed from the developers of the ultimate tank simulation - eSim Games. Now that ED is working on TBS it's not that simple anymore but you get my idea.

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