China shocks analysts by Flight Testing 5th gen JXX Stealth fighter

[Pilotasso]

I found a job easely (before current crysis) but they pay everybody badly regardless what they demand. :)

[hassata]

Exhaust IR suppression.

 

Here's another supposed use for the tech:

 

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[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Interesting that it was an Indian engineer working on the country's most sophisticated weapons. That's a sad testament to the state of American engineering though, we hire the smartest foreign minds instead of producing quality engineers through a better education system!

My older son is at the second year of software engineering studies. Younger son is planning to also take on university level education. Two sons at the university will cost about $160 000, yes, one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. And these are not private universities. I am and will be in debt for foreseeable future.

 

With that kind of cost of education, we are loosing to China and India who produce way more engineers (and probably scientists). This will be the first year ever that China is filing more patents then USA. There is no doubt in my mind that India will follow soon.

[Pilotasso]

Obama will probably introduce state funded university education to correct this like in social states...and then the rest of the population will crucify him for that. go figure. :)

[hassata]

More shenanigans from China:

 

http://gizmodo.com/5745307/did-china-try-to-pass-off-top-gun-as-air-force-footage

[Grimes]

More shenanigans from China:

 

http://gizmodo.com/5745307/did-china-try-to-pass-off-top-gun-as-air-force-footage

 

Oh snap, I can't believe they actually shot down a Mig-28. Seriously though, I wonder how many Chinese notice the similarity. Western pop culture and movies obviously have an effect on that part of the world, but a mid-80s movie like that.... I'd believe that the vast majority of their population have never seen Top Gun.

[3GOCHN-443]

Oh snap, I can't believe they actually shot down a Mig-28. Seriously though, I wonder how many Chinese notice the similarity. Western pop culture and movies obviously have an effect on that part of the world, but a mid-80s movie like that.... I'd believe that the vast majority of their population have never seen Top Gun.

 

In fact, this news is wildly criticized in China, at least on websites. CCTV is well known as using mixed video chip and music inappropriately in the news, especially in defence related news, but what are we gonna do except get used it :(

 

Speaking of education system, I found it's funny that no matter in America or China, we all thought we have a very bad education system:)

In China, children are put in cruel competition from the age of 5. Endless courses and homeworks filled with their weekends and spare time. In Shandong and Jiangsu province, high school students only have 7 hours for sleep and 2 hours for meals and other stuff each day, no weekends, you have 2 days every month to have a break. This kind of educating method perhaps can made many well educated engineers in a obvious way, but their creativity is not as strong as Americans.

[T-Bone]

That's how we've always been. A melting pot. Albert Einstein, Werner Von Braun... etc.

 

A European Jewish Physicist and a German Scientist... where are the American innovators?

[T-Bone]

football seems to be more important on high school; colleges than getting producing engineering champions.

 

I agree, this is a cultural problem. Countries like China and India value education more and although they've been less advanced than the US, they have the motivation and drive. The whole deal with Obama's State of the Union speech called for more focus in science/math and engineering to keep the United States the most advanced country in the world. In order for that to happen there needs to be better incentive for educators/the education system.

[T-Bone]

My older son is at the second year of software engineering studies. Younger son is planning to also take on university level education. Two sons at the university will cost about $160 000, yes, one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. And these are not private universities. I am and will be in debt for foreseeable future.

 

With that kind of cost of education, we are loosing to China and India who produce way more engineers (and probably scientists). This will be the first year ever that China is filing more patents then USA. There is no doubt in my mind that India will follow soon.

 

At least your children majored in studies that will help them find jobs. I just cringe at how many kids in America major in stuff like Art History... seriously with $200k debt in loans and no job to pay that off what they plan on doing with their lives. I read that most graduate 20 somethings are unemployed these days. Of the 20% of the population who goes to university, less than 5% major in Science/Technology. All the 'smart' kids are pursuing more lucrative pursuits like medicine, law, finance, etc.

[aaron886]

A European Jewish Physicist and a German Scientist... where are the American innovators?

 

I don't think you follow. America isn't a race... (this is going to sound cheesy,) it's an ideal.

[T-Bone]

I am not talking about race. My point is that people born and raised in the US have fallen short of the Thomas Edison type.

[PAKFA]

I agree, this is a cultural problem. Countries like China and India value education more and although they've been less advanced than the US, they have the motivation and drive. The whole deal with Obama's State of the Union speech called for more focus in science/math and engineering to keep the United States the most advanced country in the world. In order for that to happen there needs to be better incentive for educators/the education system.

In my opinion the US will remain a power for many decades to come. China is not going to control the world.

The world is only becoming more dangerous, China still is a poor country, disguised as a coming super economic power and rising military, what is the point of having J-20s and a space program if at least a billion of people make less than 4000 dollars a year?

Engineers? In Mexico we also graduate many engineers but most of them will go just to control the manufacturing process and very few will go to research and development, definitively i agree having a J-20 makes China a military power of first rate, but the question is are the Chinese people living better than the Europeans or Northamericans (canadians and US citizens)? In Mexico which theoretically we have a better standad of living than China many want to go to the US to live, yes you can have J-20s but it does not mean the general population have a high standad of living.

what is the point in having a space program where 1 or 2 guys are in space but one billion are the farmers or labours who work just for a few dollars a day?

Edited February 8, 2011 by PAKFA

[RIPTIDE]

Purchasing power Parity. Its about x2 USD for any nominal figures you quote for china. Maybe even x3 in some parts.

[3GOCHN-443]

In my opinion the US will remain a power for many decades to come. China is not going to control the world.

The world is only becoming more dangerous, China still is a poor country, disguised as a coming super economic power and rising military, what is the point of having J-20s and a space program if at least a billion of people make less than 4000 dollars a year?

Engineers? In Mexico we also graduate many engineers but most of them will go just to control the manufacturing process and very few will go to research and development, definitively i agree having a J-20 makes China a military power of first rate, but the question is are the Chinese people living better than the Europeans or Northamericans (canadians and US citizens)? In Mexico which theoretically we have a better standad of living than China many want to go to the US to live, yes you can have J-20s but it does not mean the general population have a high standad of living.

what is the point in having a space program where 1 or 2 guys are in space but one billion are the farmers or labours who work just for a few dollars a day?

 

I don't think the China government and the Chinese people can wait for another 40 years until we have the american life style then build our own 5th-gen fighter. The fact is in 1950s the americans put their carriers in the taiwan channel and began to airstrike China cities when most Chinese can't even feed themselves. My point is the war doesn't give a damn whether this country's people make 4000$ or 4000000$ a year. By the way, does all the russian live in a happy life? I really doubt it.

 

In fact, as a chinese, I don't think the world has enough oil and food to make all the chinese live in american life style, or even worse, in west european life style. Think about the four "PIGS" countries, it's really a shame.

 

Besides, have you ever been to China? Or you just watch the news from CNN or BBC? Well, I've been to Korea, the so called advanced country, the price all kinds of food are 3-6 times more expensive than China, perhaps even more. And a saitek ST290 joystick is about 550RMB in Korea and about 180RMB in China. The only thing I found cheaper in Korea is cars which I can't put it in my suitcase:( My father used went to Germany, Italy,France,Israel,Bulgaria,USSR Russia,Japan,Austria and New Zealand, and you know what? He found China has the lowest life essential staff price in all these countries.

 

The last and most important one: the US government and congress are pressuring the issue of the appreciation of RMB, once it succeed(and it's happening), it will greatly reduce the life quality of Chinese people, so if you REALLY CARE about how Chinese people lives, go and tell Obama to stop this appreciation issue. In my opinion, you really not care that much, you just said what you saw from TV which full of political propaganda (not just in China, also in every single country on this planet)

[revalence]

I don't think the China government and the Chinese people can wait for another 40 years until we have the american life style then build our own 5th-gen fighter. The fact is in 1950s the americans put their carriers in the taiwan channel and began to airstrike China cities when most Chinese can't even feed themselves. My point is the war doesn't give a damn whether this country's people make 4000$ or 4000000$ a year. By the way, does all the russian live in a happy life? I really doubt it.

 

In fact, as a chinese, I don't think the world has enough oil and food to make all the chinese live in american life style, or even worse, in west european life style. Think about the four "PIGS" countries, it's really a shame.

 

Besides, have you ever been to China? Or you just watch the news from CNN or BBC? Well, I've been to Korea, the so called advanced country, the price all kinds of food are 3-6 times more expensive than China, perhaps even more. And a saitek ST290 joystick is about 550RMB in Korea and about 180RMB in China. The only thing I found cheaper in Korea is cars which I can't put it in my suitcase:( My father used went to Germany, Italy,France,Israel,Bulgaria,USSR Russia,Japan,Austria and New Zealand, and you know what? He found China has the lowest life essential staff price in all these countries.

 

The last and most important one: the US government and congress are pressuring the issue of the appreciation of RMB, once it succeed(and it's happening), it will greatly reduce the life quality of Chinese people, so if you REALLY CARE about how Chinese people lives, go and tell Obama to stop this appreciation issue. In my opinion, you really not care that much, you just said what you saw from TV which full of political propaganda (not just in China, also in every single country on this planet)

 

Very true. I might not be an expert on Programming nor CAD modelling, but in terms of China ever truly competing with the United States in terms of military power and advances, it will take at least 40 years or more with the United State's current unstable economy and China's drastic growth. The United States shocked the world when we unleashed formidable technology on the Iraqis in the Persian Gulf War (1991). This advance of the J-20 isn't as so alarming as everyone says. We American as just naturally arrogant. We were competing against the Russians... Guess what? We lost the initial space race. It is just like right now. We have underestimated China and India for many decades. Now both are developing weapons of our magnitude. We were "land of opportunity" 30 years ago. In truth, the world is simply catching up. Its true and clear.

 

Also, the chances of America and China in an all-out conflict is vastly overrated. Firstly, it would be much to expensive. Secondly, it would be a political and economical upheaval. NATO, faithful to the US, would have to turn against China. North Korea would see this as an advantage, and could easily attack South Korea. China would embargo the US and other NATO countries, which would cause inflation in the US. However, with no work provided in companies that turn to China for cheap labor, this also effects China's economy. So really WAR in the Taiwan Strait= Even Hitler wasn't that stupid.

 

So the J-20 shows that China indeed is making true advances, and in the viewing of the Chinese culture, it is a source of pride also. We cannot stop nor influence the human being. We United States citizens had our "Golden Age". Maybe its time for China to have theirs. :D

 

 

Cheers,

Andrew (Revalence)

Edited February 8, 2011 by revalence

[EtherealN]

A reminder since I can see this turning combuystible: try to be easy with the politics. Flammable stuff here and warnings will be issued as and when necessary.

 

Thanks. :)

 

CHN443, a note about prices: It's actually not strictly a "good thing" when stuff is cheaper. For me, going to Norway on anything but work (where all expenses are covered) is a nightmare since it's just too expensive - but that's not a problem for the norwegians. They have higher salaries to match the prices. On the other hand, they can just hop over to sweden (or pretty much anywhere else on the entire planet) and find absolutely everything to be rediculously cheap.

 

Same thing with russia, where I have been for work. Food there is awesomely cheap, and I really enjoyed finishing off each workday with a 3-course meal. So does this mean russians are richer because stuff is cheaper? No. Their salaries are correspondingly lower. This is what's called "Purchasing Power Parity", which adjusts the GDP/c to what people can actually purchase for their salaries. This allows for more direct analysis, where the USA lands at 41 256 dollars GDP/c-PPP, China at 7226 (and almost everyone except like Luxembourgh get pwnt by those pesky norwegians at 47 915). And remember - that is PPP, so it compares the actual purchasing power, not the "real" dollars.

 

Now, of course, this goes both ways. The chinese GDP is comparatively low to the US GDP, but to really find out what the strength of the economy is like we need to consider PPP - which would almost double the numbers for the Chinese economy to over 10 trillion dollars. Suddenly, the country isn't all that far behind the US. :)

(But does have far more mouths to share the economy with, but you get the point.)

 

Also, we should defininntely remember that there are major differences between different parts of the country. GDP/capita with PPP for Shanghai is about 21 000 dollars (about two-thirds the way to my country, half the way to the US), but if you go to Yunnan, Gansu or Guizhou the comparison isn't quite as happy.

 

Basically, China is a whole continent on it's own. :P It includes economic situations on regiuonal levels where some have the same average purchasing power as the people of Iraq, and other regions (Hong Kong and Macau) can be compared to poster-children of western wealth like Switzerland. And for pretty much any step in between, there's an equivalent province in China.

 

The big difference is that it's hard to find any country in any of these comparisons that have suntained double-digit economic growth for as long as China has, and it'll be interesting to see how long they can keep it up. If it wasn't for the Kanji stuff, I'm game for learning Mandarin. :D

 

But anyways, the really key point that I hope everyone can bring home from this post is: PPP. You might look at china and wonder why they'd bother spending money on such a fighter jet when they have so many other things to spend money on, but applying PPP to the GDP numbers gives the chinese economy overall a relatively small margin to the US or EU GDP's. And remember - always apply PPP in those cases too - for example, the EU GDP is about 16.5 trillion dollars (bigger than the US - eat that yanks! :D ), but since we are (mostly - a LOT of variability in the EU still, just like China) on the other end of the spectrum, we get less for those dollars, so a purchasing-power-adjusted GDP would be only just below 15 trillion dollars. (Still larger than the US tho. Teeheh. :P )

 

So the big question really becomes... Why aren't we europeans building something like that? We have the money too! But well, let's face it, we'd never manage to agree on which company would get to design it, and then it would end up split all over the union, and then be sent to some factory in france for final assembly at which point people notice that everyone used their own standards for everything and nothing fits. Sort of like the A380. But I guess the nEUROn demonstrator might be a step in the right direction there.

[Moa]

Incidentally for those who aren't aware. The J-20 looks like it is an adapted version of the MiG I.42. Since MiG is struggling (many countries are choosing the Flanker over the Fulcrum, even returning delivered Fulcrums) they probably sold the tech to China (makes sense). While China is increasing in capabilities the J-20 does not appear to be a native design (just as the J-10 is a direct incarnation of the Israeli Lavi).

 

As EtherealN points out, the Europeans could easily build such a thing (assuming they had the political will). They much prefer to spend their money on increasing quality of life. It is a shame that big countries feel that they ought to waste money on prestige projects rather than improving the lives of *all* their citizenry.

[3GOCHN-443]

I'm not saying China is the best country in theworld. We have lots of problems over here and everybody knows. But who doesn't? But the point is and always will be: does the Chinese people want to solve all there problems all by themselves or remote controled by somebody in Washington, London or Paris? In the past 200 years, foreigners invade China countless times, we can't fight back not because we don't want to, but because we can't fight with comparable weapon.

 

So is today, thousands of communities supported by CIA or FBI is waiting to break China into pieces when China is to weak to fight back, you know, tibet, xingjiang, inna mongolia, taiwan……etc (they are all a part of China for hundreds or thousands of years).

If you are an american, how about let alaska or new mexico or texas free? And what would you think of China if China supports all this kind of stuff? Sometimes we just need to think outside of the box:)

 

I went a bit too far, the whole point is:

1: China DO have the right to develop it's 5th-gen fighter.

2: China DO have some problems, but we are handling it and we want to do it on my own. A strong military force is the protection to prevent China from manipulated by other country.

3: If you really care about China and Chinese people, don't tell us what to do or not to do. Come to China, get to know China better and watch less TV (remember being a teenager? want happened when somebody tell you what to do?:) )

[EtherealN]

Okey, seriously, that does cross the line mate.

 

I don't think anyone said that China does not have the "right" to develop a 5th gen fighter. Of course it does. Whether it's the best way to spend the money is the discussion discussion (and actually an interesting one).

 

However, we are NOT going to dive into a discussion about which countries did what to which other countries, minorities or whatever. Final warning. Discuss the planes and relevant industrial and economical factors, NOT politics.

[3GOCHN-443]

By the way, let's talk about pure business: USA made trillions of money by selling from bullets to stealth fighters, and why can't China do the same thing? Earn lots of money to make chinese live in a better life?:lol It's much better than selling T-shirts or shoes:)

[EtherealN]

No Chn-443, let's not talk about that. Here's what the thread title says: "China shocks analysts by Flight Testing 5th gen JXX Stealth fighter". Let's talk about that, and things that relate to it.

 

This isn't rocket science. Drop the politics and get back on topic.

[3GOCHN-443]

Okey, seriously, that does cross the line mate.

 

I don't think anyone said that China does not have the "right" to develop a 5th gen fighter. Of course it does. Whether it's the best way to spend the money is the discussion discussion (and actually an interesting one).

 

However, we are NOT going to dive into a discussion about which countries did what to which other countries, minorities or whatever. Final warning. Discuss the planes and relevant industrial and economical factors, NOT politics.

 

Got it. But let's face it man, talking about weapons always comes with political issues. It's just the matter of more or less

[EtherealN]

Which is exactly why the rule is in place. This is an international forum that brings together enthusiasts from all over the world, and if we are to be able to talk about the subject matter in a civilized manner we all need to stay away from those politics. Simple.

 

Back to schedule now. :)

[3GOCHN-443]

understood:)