GuntiNDDS Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hi, in your oppinion, which one is the better joystick for dcs blackshark ? the Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar (USB) or the CH Fighterstick (USB) i read the Fighterstick is very "light" and the Cougar is very "heavy". not quite sure whats better for this sim. Also i read somewhere that you might have to modify the cougar to work better ? because i am not very skilled at modificating stuff :D Thanks for your oppinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekkinho Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well, none of them simulates real helo controls so which is better for DCS can be same as which is better in general! I'd PM Urze and ask for Left side limited X-52 mod! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuntiNDDS Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 well, i guess my question is wether it is better for this sim to use the "heavy" cougar, or the "light" CH stick, regardless that both dont allow for realistic trimming, if that's what you pointed towards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well, I have both now-- not home yet to test, but I will report back in a few days. I'm waiting for the cougar extension as well , so I will have reports for the FSSB cougar, standard cougar, standard with 31 cm extender, and last the ch flightstick combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuntiNDDS Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 cool. interested to read your findings :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amuro Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well, if you buy the FSSB mod along with Cougar, I'm sure it wil be better for DCS. That is going to cost $700-850, rather expensive. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel Core i7-3960X @4.3Ghz | Asus Rampage IV Extreme | Corsair CML16GX3M4A1866C9 4 x 4GB @1866Mhz 9-10-9-27-1T |eVGA GTX Titan Black Hydro Copper SLI | Plextor M5 Pro 512GB SSD | Crucial M4 512GB SSD | Seagate 2TB SSHD | Samsung Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB | Pioneer BDR-205BK 12x Blu-ray Burner | Creative x-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Sound Card | Corsair A1200 1200W PSU Cooling - Watercool MO-RA3 420 PRO stainless steel radiator with 9x Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilent Pro PK-2 140mm fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannibal Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 whoa...$700-800 ??? that kind of money, ill make my own joystick...err..long shaft cyclic! find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 The FSSB mod takes away all most all movement from the stick.All input is measured off the force you put on the grip as it is the FBW design for the F-16? How could this be better for the KA-50? With a center mounted stick that moves A IJ's mod with extention would be an example or Urzes mod.I think you would have a nore realistic set up at less cost https://www.shapeways.com/shops/a-10c-warthog-supplies https://forum.dcs.world/topic/133818-deadmans-cockpit-base-plans/#comment-133824 CNCs and Laser engravers are great but they can't do squat with out a precise set of plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannibal Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 i say first get used to playing black shark before spending such money on a peice of hardware.. u have lots have use x52 with satisfaction.. a handful that crowns the out of manufacture MS Sidewinder FF as king, and then owners of ch products like me who hardly make any threads of complaint what im saying, u should try different controllers out...some like it stiff, others need it loose...so its going to be personal preference...what works for one, may not work for another... find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amuro Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 The FSSB mod takes away all most all movement from the stick.All input is measured off the force you put on the grip as it is the FBW design for the F-16? How could this be better for the KA-50? Trimming is probably easier since the stick hardly even moves, so returning to center should be quicker than the CH. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel Core i7-3960X @4.3Ghz | Asus Rampage IV Extreme | Corsair CML16GX3M4A1866C9 4 x 4GB @1866Mhz 9-10-9-27-1T |eVGA GTX Titan Black Hydro Copper SLI | Plextor M5 Pro 512GB SSD | Crucial M4 512GB SSD | Seagate 2TB SSHD | Samsung Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB | Pioneer BDR-205BK 12x Blu-ray Burner | Creative x-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Sound Card | Corsair A1200 1200W PSU Cooling - Watercool MO-RA3 420 PRO stainless steel radiator with 9x Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilent Pro PK-2 140mm fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG14_Smil Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Tm Cougar is an oxymoron - heavy duty base and handle, connected to garbage pivot points, springs and pots. They can spike like crazy right out of the box and have almost half an inch of freeplay near center. I am really suprised TM is still in buisness after the fiasco they had back in the '90's, when they bought potentiometers for the FLCS/F22 Pro that had grease that affected pot output. People would wash out the grease with WD-40, fixing the spikes and making the pots wear out before their time. New Cougars use a plastic potentiometer. Even these can spike and I had to remove and modify the mounting bracket (for the pot) to stop spiking. My Cougar was bought in 2001 or so, so maybe they are better now. Very good programability though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalNine Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) I have had all of them... Started with the single sticks like most everyone to include MS and Logitech. Then the natural progression of a HOTAS came about. Being the research junkie that I am I decided to go with a CH setup (Fighterstick, Prop Pedals and Throttle). It worked great. The programming software is very strong and the customer service by CH cannot be matched. In the past everytime I ned cash for something foolish I sell off my flight sim gear. This has cost me more money in the long run and is not a Dave Ramsey friendly idea so I don't reccomend it. I have now owned 2 sets of CH, a Cougar UberII-NXT and a Saitek X52. Using CH I would read all the forums (good and bad) about Cougar. So I decided to go out and break the bank on the Cougar setup. ...ya know what? I was not all that impressed. It had all the bells and whistles currently available but it did not feel as accurate or as solid (even though it weighed more) as my CH setup. I gave it some time - I tried... I really did. But alas I sold it off for a good price to a very happy buyer. (Insert Time Frame where I swore off Flight Sims alltogether) I couldn't hold out any longer and passing by an X52 at Best Buy one day I took the plunge. I walked it into the house (much to my wife's chagrin) and set it up. I liked it a lot actually. Liked it as much as the Cougar and basic programming is VERY easy with the SST software. It was accurate, felt good and aside from what I consider ugly lights blinking off the thing its not that bad. ...problem is that I do spend a fair amount of time online flying around and less than 1 year later I am now noticing stickyness in the X,Y axis. Not a problem for fixed wing games like Falcon but is becoming a REAL issue for a game like BlackShark where smooth, fine movements are absolutely critical. I like to hang out over at the CH Hangar anyways because the beer is cold and the food is good. So I have decided to go back to what I know and love - a CH Setup. I should have it put together by the end of the month and am looking forward to it. I am far from a "Fanboy" of any particular kind of gear. Heck, only 2 months ago I was raving about the Saitek on some forum somehwere. Now that it is starting to wear out (causing real gameplay issues) I have a bit of a different perspective. Having used all of the different sticks these were my experiences. Though I will not hesitate to reccomned the X52 to a casual gamer who does not loag all that many hours on the joystick. It's great to get you up and running with a HOTAS. Just be sure you wont be using it too much as it does wear. Though I have not had some of the other X52 issues I have heard others complain about I find it inacuarate when it comes to fine adjustments Cougar - what can you say? It does look kinda cool and has a history behind it as storied as Falcon4 itself. But it is complete garbage out of the box. In order to get it good (by good I mean useable)you need to lay some money into it. In order to make it really perform you'll need to lay some serious money into it by way of the FSSB or UberII mods. Once you do that (as I have) its still gonna play second fiddle to CH. CH - Looks good to some, Looks cheaper than the Cougar to some... Fact is that its a heavy duty piece of gear when you get right down to it. It is smoother and more precise than any other stick without question. I can say that after having owned 2 full setups I never experienced even one minor hardware issue. The online CH users (customers and employees) are generally VERY helpful and responsive with questions and the material is out there to get you up an running in no time flat. If it was anything other than a freakin' JOYSTICK and you weighed the pros and cons it would be a no-brainer. CH has the most durable, precise and powerful flight controllers on the market. If these sticks were cars Consumer Reports would have a field day with the Cougar... Remember you look at the game when you play - not the stick. The reason you have a HOTAS in the first place is so you can keep your hands on the stick, eyes off the buttons and knobs and eyes ON THE GAME. The single most important thing you can have is gear you can count on. I fly with a hardcore group of Falconeers and the Cougar guys are die hards. When I got a Cougar they were thrilled and eager to help. Not so pleased when I decide to sell it off though. :) Cougar owners are like smokers. They like it when you're in their club but hate to see you quit. Misery loves company and owning Cougar is bad for your wallet and unhealthy for you uptime in game. Do yourself a favor - and either buy once and get a CH or if you don't have the several hundred dollars at the moment get a Saitek but be prepared to get another one in the future. How much you play should really be the deciding factor. Edited February 23, 2009 by LoyalNine I spell like a fif grad3r 2 1 [sIGPIC]http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/16th_Relic/16th-sig.jpg[/sIGPIC] AMD 965BE, 8GB RAM, ATI5750, Track IR4,TM MFD's, CH FS,PT,PP "You can take my CH setup when you pry it from my dead, cold hands..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 good post, I agree mostly! I have fssb and works fine with black shark, but the stick doesn't move, so it makes it hard to fly a helicopter. The ideal setup would be a center long shafted stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyBerkut Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Interesting. On the Saitek X52, what do you think is causing the stickyness? (The gimbals or the centering spring mechanism?). The X & Y axis use Hall Effect sensors, so they shouldn't be an issue. BTW, Pilotasso had a DIY mod involving the magnets that reportedly made it more precise. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=21199&highlight=X52+magnet+mod I haven't tried it on mine yet, but then I'm looking at grafting the X52 handle on to a Saitek Cyborg Evo Force base anyways, to get FFB trim. ---------------------------------------------- Back on topic... I don't own either CH or the TM Cougar. As an interested observer, it does seem like a higher percentage of CH Products users (at least in the hard core user communities) are happy with the products as they come out of the box. There also appears to be less issues for them in the long run regarding potentiometers and gimbals. On the flip side, the slider-type throttle is a downer for some folks. Hand size may also be an issue... as I understand it the CH Products favor larger hands as compared to the TM Cougar. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] There's no place like 127.0.0.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalNine Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Interesting. On the Saitek X52, what do you think is causing the stickyness? (The gimbals or the centering spring mechanism?). The X & Y axis use Hall Effect sensors, so they shouldn't be an issue. On the flip side, the slider-type throttle is a downer for some folks. Hand size may also be an issue... as I understand it the CH Products favor larger hands as compared to the TM Cougar. The stickyness I think is just the plastic wearing slightly. In the control panel the sensors still appear to be quite stable. I can best describe it as at the very fine adjustments it feels as though it needs some grease to slicken it up and slide smooth. The CH Joystick is big. I have pretty good size hands and its big. Ypou mention the throttle - that was one of my MAJOR reasons for wanting a Cougar. I thought I would like the Throttle style on the X52 and Cougar more. I really did not even notice a difference so to me its now a non issue. But I understand why folks may want that. [sIGPIC]http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/16th_Relic/16th-sig.jpg[/sIGPIC] AMD 965BE, 8GB RAM, ATI5750, Track IR4,TM MFD's, CH FS,PT,PP "You can take my CH setup when you pry it from my dead, cold hands..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51GRIZZLY Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I can only agree there is nothing like CH out there its working perfectly out of the box and never lets you down. :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuntiNDDS Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thanks for your posts. So i guess a basic strategy could be to get started with the X52, then get the CH Stick, but keep the X52 throttle. Too bad they only sell these in pairs :P What do you think of the CH pedals tho ? i read that it pretty tight. i have -huge- feet and i guess it could be uncomfortable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 BIG MESSAGE :) Thank you for your input, it is very instructive. Before reading your message, I wanted to buy both joysticks. CH for helicopter and WW2 sims, and arcade games. Cougar for Jet sims (F4+mods and DCS : "fast movers"). So after reading your experience I think I am going to save quite a lot of money :thumbup: (approximately 200 euros for cougar + approximately 300-500 euros for a modification). The biggest problem I thought I had with CH products was the lack of detentes on the throttle but I will believe your word on it. You mention the throttle - that was one of my MAJOR reasons for wanting a Cougar. I thought I would like the Throttle style on the X52 and Cougar more. I really did not even notice a difference so to me its now a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalNine Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thanks for your posts. So i guess a basic strategy could be to get started with the X52, then get the CH Stick, but keep the X52 throttle. Too bad they only sell these in pairs :P What do you think of the CH pedals tho ? i read that it pretty tight. i have -huge- feet and i guess it could be uncomfortable for me. I was going to go on about the pedals in my first post but realized I was already dragging on about things... Here is my take. I have had CH, Saitek and a set of Thrustmaster Elites. Currently I have a set of the new syle Saiteks under my desk and much like the throttle (thought) I would maybe like them better. I dont. They have a tension knob in the middle - pretty much useless as you can never really dial in enough tension. They are hypersensitve so I had to put in a touch of deadzone in the control panel. they ae REALLY lightweight and spread a bit further apart. I have size 12(US) shoes which is the big end of normal. Never even remotely had an issue of the CH feeling as though they were too small. The only think I don't like about the CH is the ridge they have at the bottom that hurts a bit as I usually am wearing socks. But I also tend to only use the balls of my feet at the bottom end of the pedals rather than the whole foot for better feel. Saitek - spread apart a bit further, lightweight, tension knob is not worth much, completes the X52 setup CH - not as fancy (looking), a bit closer together, stupid ridge at the bottom annoys me but could be easily modified. ---------------- My only reccomendation is if you are going to get a setup stick with all the same brand for pedals, throttle and stick. It will make programming much simpler and more powerful for you. [sIGPIC]http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/16th_Relic/16th-sig.jpg[/sIGPIC] AMD 965BE, 8GB RAM, ATI5750, Track IR4,TM MFD's, CH FS,PT,PP "You can take my CH setup when you pry it from my dead, cold hands..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuntie Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Got a Cougar and frankly not inpressed with it. Significant center play - such that fine control around the center is almost impossible. Trying to get the pipper just right for a deflection shot etc. is a pain. The solution is to take the stick apart and 'mod' it, or spend as much again, if not more, on a professional mod such as FSSB. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I truly believe that for what I paid it should work right out of the box, and work well. This is not some 5.99 walmart cheapo stick after all. Never had a problem with my Old Saitek, or with any of the CH stuff I've bought - Yoke Quad throttle and Rudders. But the much vaunted and oh so superior Coguar just plain sucks quality wise. Gosh it's heavy, realistic looking, and feels good. But if they don't work well out of the box, then that just makes them a nice looking pile of junk. Cheers Stuntie. 1 Cheers Stuntie [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMFA117_Poko Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 @LoyalNine Very usefull post. I was wondering if there is any more precise controller than my old x52. I must consider buying CH setup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51GRIZZLY Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) Pilotasso made a nice review comparing the CH with the Saitek X52 some time ago http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=195992&highlight=cougar#post195992 :pilotfly: Edited February 25, 2009 by <51>GRIZZLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuntiNDDS Posted February 24, 2009 Author Share Posted February 24, 2009 almost forgott to thank you for your explanations royalnine :) i think i got a plan now. :D thanks :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalNine Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 My pleasure guys... If you do up and get the CH Stuff then the http://www.chhangar.com is the place to ask anything technical. ~S~ L9 [sIGPIC]http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/16th_Relic/16th-sig.jpg[/sIGPIC] AMD 965BE, 8GB RAM, ATI5750, Track IR4,TM MFD's, CH FS,PT,PP "You can take my CH setup when you pry it from my dead, cold hands..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flim Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Here is my opinion of the ch for blackshark, It is ok, controls are really light-- too light! The stick is made very well, and would be perfect to use the grip for an homemade application. Now, that I've used both sticks-- my vote would be for an FSSB cougar. It makes flying anything easy with a twitch of the wrist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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