How I Think the Controls Should Work

[ericinexile]

Sorry about the arrogant thread title.

 

After 40 hours of flying, most of it in Flight Director mode, I feel there is an easier way to model what is said to be the real Ka50 flight control logic by the ED testers who contribute to this forum. (This applies to non-ffb sticks only.) The problem with flying without the FD is that the autopilot really does fight the pilot. This is patently obvious when one compares flying with and without flying with the FD. Others on this forum have described the autopilot's contribution when the pilot moves the controls as "rubberbanding". That's a perfect description. Flying with the FD on is one solution but it's an imperfect one. The autopilots provide an excellent assist for a pilot flying a combat helicopter single-pilot and turning the FD on and off as needed is a bit awkward--as is holding the trim. Here's the better way:

 

The instant the pilot moves his stick outside the dead-zone, the autopilot attitude/heading hold should completely release. In other words, when the stick moves, the flight control system should respond exactly as if the player turned the FD on and when the stick is released the autopilot should return to the last trimmed attitude/heading. This is actually how the ED reps state the real Ka50 behaves and, as a 12000 hour pilot, it makes perfect sense to me.

 

Smokin' Hole

[einar-st]

To be honest I don't find the autopilot is fighting me at all. I think it works fine just the way it is.

 

And can you point me to the threads with ED reps saying that's how the real KA-50 behaves. Because that's not how I understand it.

[Cp]

Just hold down the trim button while you move the cyclic, the autopilot will be disengaged whilst you hold it down.

[DragonRR]

Just hold down the trim button while you move the cyclic, the autopilot will be disengaged whilst you hold it down.

 

Whilst this does work it is extremely difficult to return the cyclic and rudder to centre whilst ensuring that the flight path is correct at the same time.

 

@ericinexile. Initially this sounded like a good idea.. I use FD 90% of the time unless I'm on route somewhere. However the problem as mentioned above, for me at least, is that effectively two trims are combined in one. In what way, if any, does your method address this?

[ericinexile]

To be honest I don't find the autopilot is fighting me at all. I think it works fine just the way it is.

 

And can you point me to the threads with ED reps saying that's how the real KA-50 behaves. Because that's not how I understand it.

 

Too difficult to provide links but here are the quotes from the Autopilot "sticky" thread:

 

EvilBivol-1..."Example: I input left cyclic. The AP begins to receive two signals - one from the controls, telling it that the cyclic has moved to the left and by how much and one from the instrumentation, telling it that the aircraft is banking to the left and deviating from the previously trimmed position. The AP wants to bank the helicopter to the right to bring it back to trim, but because the controls signal is proving it with left cyclic input, the result is no input from the AP onto the helicopter."

 

AlphaOneSix..."It has commonly been noted that in the normal autopilot mode with the three normal autopilot channels on, the autopilot will fight you if you move the controls. This is not true. It is true that absent any control inputs from the pilot, the autopilot will attempt to hold the aircraft's heading and attitude. However, if the pilot moves the cyclic or the pedals, the autopilot is aware of that and makes no move to interfere, although it continues to provide control input for the purpose of dampening (stability augmentation is the term typically used in the West)".

 

If you haven't flown extensively in Flight Director or if you haven't flown with the Autopilot "blue" channels off you may not realize that the autopilot really IS fighting you. The flight control system as implemented in the sim does not, in my experience, recognize pilot input and figuratively take its hand off the stick. When flying gently this isn't a significant problem which is why you may have not realized the amount of input required by you just to override the autopilot.

[LIONPRIDE]

.

 

OK ... but isn't the DEV Team looking at changing the flight controls anyway? I thought I remember reading that, at the very least, that the TRIM was going to be fixed/changed. Are we revisiting a horse of the deceased kind?

 

 

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[ericinexile]

Whilst this does work it is extremely difficult to return the cyclic and rudder to centre whilst ensuring that the flight path is correct at the same time.

 

@ericinexile. Initially this sounded like a good idea.. I use FD 90% of the time unless I'm on route somewhere. However the problem as mentioned above, for me at least, is that effectively two trims are combined in one. In what way, if any, does your method address this?

 

I use FD at least 90% of the time as well. But I would rather fly close to how the Ka50 is flown, if possible. And I have tried, but agressive flight with the FD off is impossible for me (unless I hold the trim--awkward, if not bad, technique). When I fly with the FD off I must constantly be conscious of what the autopilot needs in order for me to quickly but smoothly change the helicopter's flight path--which is usually a huge amount of in-turn cyclic and rudder input over that which is required with the FD ON. I have 1200 hours as a check-airman on the A320 so I have flown aircraft with which the autoflight system is "always on". And on that plane you would never know it unless you were to attempt a loop or a roll--it otherwise flys exactly like an airplane should. Autoflight systems ARE NEVER DESIGNED to get in the pilots way. Which is why I believe the Ka50 autopilot truely does "let go of the stick*" when pilot input is recognized. All I am suggesting is that the DCS Ka50 does not seem to recognize pilot input and that it should.

 

*In a manner of speaking. Yes, I know that the autopilot is not flying the stick.

 

Smokin' Hole

Edited February 8, 2009 by ericinexile

[ericinexile]

.

 

OK ... but isn't the DEV Team looking at changing the flight controls anyway? I thought I remember reading that, at the very least, that the TRIM was going to be fixed/changed. Are we revisiting a horse of the deceased kind?

 

 

.

 

News to me. Trim works fine anyway but if they rework the autoflight I'll do my best Gilda Radner "Never Mind!"

 

SH

[LIONPRIDE]

News to me. Trim works fine anyway but if they rework the autoflight I'll do my best Gilda Radner "Never Mind!"

 

SH

 

 

I'm just wondering why all the discussion on how it "should" work? You can always map a key, as I did, to disable AP as soon as you decide to move out. To assume that all APs do/should work the same is a bit naive. Most choppers used for SAR work as the KA-50 modeled by DCS. But ... I have seen it modeled as you describe (in other sims). Perhaps just a pref of the Dev Team.

 

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[ericinexile]

I'm just wondering why all the discussion on how it "should" work? You can always map a key, as I did, to disable AP as soon as you decide to move out. To assume that all APs do/should work the same is a bit naive. Most choppers used for SAR work as the KA-50 modeled by DCS. But ... I have seen it modeled as you describe (in other sims). Perhaps just a pref of the Dev Team.

 

.

 

 

LP,

 

Why the hostility? I'm only asking that the FCS work the same way the FCS has been described to work on the Ka50. If nothing changes then I'm still happy as a lark that I have on my Mac the greatest sim ever made. Yes, I do have the FD mapped to my Saitek and, no, its not really a problem to use. I just see an easier way. If my opinion has no validity then don't respond and this thread will die a much deserved death in obscurity in a day or two.

 

SH

[eV1Te]

The only time I have noticed that the AP is fighting me which is worth mentioning is the Heading-Hold feature when I'm not on a straight course and when I doesn't have the turn-to-target switch on... (Therefore I have only Pitch and Bank Hold turned on during normal flight, with them turned of the Ka-50 is to hard to manage at the same time as doing combat)

 

Although keep in mind that in the real Ka-50 you can always feel the controls with hands and feet and pressing the trim button there is much easier since it only removes the springs to the cyclic for a small second, not recenter the whole position of the joystick as it does for normal Joystick users.

[congo]

I'm just wondering why all the discussion on how it "should" work? You can always map a key, as I did, to disable AP as soon as you decide to move out. To assume that all APs do/should work the same is a bit naive. Most choppers used for SAR work as the KA-50 modeled by DCS. But ... I have seen it modeled as you describe (in other sims). Perhaps just a pref of the Dev Team.

 

.

 

 

I thought SAR stood for Search Air Rescue and the KA-50 was a gunship.

[ericinexile]

I'm guessing LP is refering to the dopplar hover hold feature of many SAR helos.

[Reticuli]

The problem your idea would have is there'd be a moment between when you release the stick and when it actually gets to the center where it would essentially do the same thing it's already doing when FD is off: wobble or bob...the rubber band effect. It would only know to switch FD off when at the center, and don't think that the motion to move it back is sufficient to instruct the change in mode. I've done about a gazzillion variations of helo controls for Comanche Gold, EECH, and Blackshark, so I know exactly of what I speak. If you really want to, you can easily prove this to yourself by programming a band in the deadzone (or pass through boarder bands to the deadzones) of your stick with a pseudo-press of the FD button (l.ctrl+a) that activates it and deactivates it as you pass through out of and back to the center. It would not give pleasant results, though.

 

Fact is, all helos that use sidestick joysticks that always recenter on their own use automated attitude command/ attitude hold and a dynamic trimming system. So any other work around is just deluding yourself into thinking there's some truly rational and natural and completely realistic way to do otherwise if you don't have force feedback. No real helo would ever use a delay, amongst other issues. Hence my GlovePIE scripts, which, for instance, actually makes the Comanche fly more realistically in EECH.

 

To be kind, what ED has now for manual trimming is not a terrible work around. A slighty better system if all you were ever using was manual trim (which I'm not, so it wouldn't) would be if the stick did nothing between the center and the trim point (a real backup mode on some sidestick helos), but if ED makes that the new control system permanently, then any GlovePIE scripts or other work around would become useless...not to mention some pole-cylics and forcefeedback sticks that don't carry their center with them may work incorrectly.

 

If they do the expanding deadzone trim as an option you can turn off and on and leave the current system as default, I think people will have sufficient options: forcefeedback or Pole Cyclics, the current delay-trim system, my GlovePIE dynamic trimming (see the link), and an expanding deadzone system without delay (optional in Blackshark menu). Nothing else is required for the autopilot or control system changes in the sim, assuming ED modeled the helo and the aerodynamics correctly in the first place.

 

At this point I could personally care less, though, as I wouldn't use the new mode anyway. But for the sake of the rest of you that would be worth putting in.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Reticuli

[LIONPRIDE]

LP,

 

Why the hostility? I'm only asking that the FCS work the same way the FCS has been described to work on the Ka50. If nothing changes then I'm still happy as a lark that I have on my Mac the greatest sim ever made. Yes, I do have the FD mapped to my Saitek and, no, its not really a problem to use. I just see an easier way. If my opinion has no validity then don't respond and this thread will die a much deserved death in obscurity in a day or two.

 

SH

 

No hostility intended. You're entitle to your opinion. It just seems that this A/P thing gets brought up an awful lot.

 

... and yes, the TRIM was something that was going to be remodeled.

 

 

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[Jack57]

The only time I use AP is for targeting so as to make things easier when you have your head down. For the rest of the time I love to fly with the AP completely disabled - you don't have to worry about any trim issues and the bird flies exactly as I expect her to, from the seat of the pants :P

 

I can already hear the howls of derision from the peanut gallery - but I don't really care how they fly the real one. My way reminds me of my RL experience and besides, it's my sim and I fly it how I damn well want to :music_whistling:

 

Jack :D

Edited February 9, 2009 by Jack57

[connos]

I found out the with Heading-Hold enable if you want to change heading its very easy by using Trim. Not by holding it.

 

A way to test it is by resetting the PVI-800, enable all the auto pilots, change heading, press and release trim every time you change heading, and you will notice in the HUD it will create an indication of your new heading (like the waypoint dot). This helps a lot believe me, it took time for me to notice it but it works really good especially if you are applying rudder. Don't trim while you are applying rudder. Apply first rudder center your joy then trim quickly to your new heading.

 

It make flying BS smooth and easy without fighting the auto pilots.

Edited February 9, 2009 by connos

[Maverick-GER-]

well in my opinion people having trouble with the AP are just not trimming enough or right... I myself have no problem with trimming and also no problem at controlling the ka-50! And I am not fighting the Autopilot as you state here, the only time i would fight the autopilot would be in close combat but i get around that by either holding down trimmer or engaging FD Mode...

 

Trim often and Autopilot is your friend, if you are too lazy to trim fly with FD!

[connos]

At the begging i was disabling and enabling the auto pilots every time i maneuver or change heading, but now that i understand how trim works, and that its not just to neutralizes the forces on the cyclic and pedals, but also reset the auto pilots channels to the new position/heading of the BS it make my flight easier and more smooth.

[WynnTTr]

No troubles flying the BS - holding trimmer while making changes, then release. No rubber-banding or wobbling for me either. This is after alot of practice though - as it should be.

[Tiger27]

I started out using FD a lot, but as I have gotten used to the finer degree of control required compared to the flight sim I mainly fly (IL2) I find that I rarely need to use FD anymore.

 

I think what helped me was, one, making smaller movements and two waiting until the heli stabilised a bit before releasing trim, there is also the ctrl/enter screen which lets you allow for the lack of force feedback, I tend to trim to for pitch roll and yaw and then use the control overlay to bring my pedals back to center, I think the way the pedals work with trim is the biggest downside of the way the trim system works currently.

 

No harm in people coming up with new ideas on how it should be modelled and maybe one of the ideas above is the right one, all I hope is that you get the option to try out whatever new system ED have planned, or stick with what we have.

[DragonRR]

From my point of view the ideal would be the ability to trim bearing and cyclic/rudder positions separately. The snag obviously is having two trim buttons. Overall though I don't find the current situation unbearable, trimming in normal flight without FD is more or less ok.

 

At the previous poster.. Slightly puzzled, unless you are using FFB joystick... why is the rudder any different to the joystick?

[msalama]

holding trimmer while making changes, then release. No rubber-banding or wobbling for me either.

 

+1

 

Same thing here. I've had no control problems whatsoever since understanding how the trimmer system works. She's smooth as silk for me now...

[DTWD]

If you have an x52 setup the software to latch the trim button. That way you press it, manouever, get stabilised on your new heading and then press the button again. It's really easy and is quite useful. I setup a shiftstate on a button to display the trim status so I check it if I am getting some odd issue in flight and before I get into an autohover.

 

I agree though that have to trim in emergancy situations and certain combat scenarios is not desirable, hence I keep FD on my pinkie switch (sounds rude :D) so I just jab that when I need "full" control and to be able to throw the KA-50 around.

[ruprecht]

No troubles flying the BS - holding trimmer while making changes, then release. No rubber-banding or wobbling for me either. This is after alot of practice though - as it should be.

 

+1