Air to Air Missile Flight Physics and Logics, Take two!

[GGTharos]

I don't recall. May have been no shoot down at all. It really doesn't take much to break the radar lock, and come right around while your opponent is confused and pop him one. We all know that the Uraqi's weren't particularely well trained though - nor do I think the Mirage carried any BVR weapons anyway (It was an F1 I think)

 

Either way, it's not all that impractical /unless/ you're completely defensive ... then obviously you're screwed, no doubt about it. The same happens in LOMAC, too.

[Sharpshooter]

Nope, completely untrue. Two aircraft can merge, none of their actives ever having found a target.

 

HOWEVER. You'll never see me nose-on with an enemy aircraft, being fired on, and not having fired back, so please delete that assumption - it would only happen due to surprise or sleeping on the job, and both are fairly rare.

 

You can ocnsistently have a high survival rate -jsut- by applying the correct techniques at the right time ... to give you an example, I got into a tiff with a fully loaded MiG-29S. I only had a pair of 9's left (he dodged my one remaining amraam) so I fired one head on at farther range than I would have licked, then we proceeded to merge ... he had fired 4 missiles that failed to hit me, I was diving for the sea, backed out. Anyway, I pulled out, didn't know whre he was, checked six (when in doubt, check six) and hey, there he is, RIGHT there ... he fires his last 73 ... I dodge it, roll him, gun kill.

 

That's a circumstantial example though, and obviously things don't always happen this way. Still, point is, you can ensure your survival by doing the right thing at the right time.

 

Anyway ... back to ballistics. ;D

 

(Before we start, all of this assuming you have the missile efficiency slider in the ACE position)

 

Of course two aircraft can merge, but the possibilities are getting slimmer and slimmier with technology and SA.

 

When I said no missile in the air I was assuming your long range shots had failed, and you were planning to fire another as he was pointing at you. Or another assumption, you were fighting another A/C and when you finish with it you realize that there is an F-15 in the neighborhood. Or perhaps the F-15 was flying low and you´ve just found it. There are tons of situations I can think of, of course it doesn´t happen when you´ve been patrolling that area for months (Homeland defense) and that is like the first time you see something out of place.

 

Anyway it doesn´t matter if you fired or not, the point is that head on, the AMRAAM is likely to hit. Especially against the AI, they are just not good at evading missiles, they get lucky sometimes though, and sometimes is just the firing pilots fault. The only AMRAAMs being decoyed by chaff I´ve seen are the ones that barely have energy to follow their target and get a complete picture of the area (because their lead pursuit is not that, well, leading), and thus there is more possibility the missile will see the chaff, attempt to follow it for half a sec. and get the A/C out of the seeker view.

[Sharpshooter]

All I could say is with a plain head on the F-15 always wins.

 

All I can say is that you seriously need to adopt some new missile avoidance techniques if that’s the case for you. :wink:

 

Inside 20Km with circumstances I explained in my last post.

 

Seriously speaking about my skills. Head-On F-15 AMRAAM AI against Me Su-27 ER R. I have a 50% chance of winning, the AI is so stupid that throws out his 120Cs at max range, I have better probability of defeating them at that range, I fire ER, descend and drop chaff, crash the 120 into the sea, looking up ith my radar the ER has 60% chance of hitting, if it doesn´t then the F-15C is in a vulnerable position (because of the beaming he´s done) so I fire the more maneuberable R-27R and win :P All of this assuming I crash the 120 into the sea, otherwise i´m screwed because I have to drop the lock, then the 15 gets closer=dead me. I have not found a better tactic to defeat a 120 while not dropping the lock.

 

With only R-27R (R-27T and TE out of my arsenal now tht they don´t have datalink) I do the same but I will have to do with firing my R-27R after he fired his 120.

 

What tactics would you use ?, I can always learn you know. The 120 being undermodeled or not, we talk about winning battles not defeating missiles.

[zzzspace]

I don't recall. May have been no shoot down at all. It really doesn't take much to break the radar lock, and come right around while your opponent is confused and pop him one. We all know that the Uraqi's weren't particularely well trained though - nor do I think the Mirage carried any BVR weapons anyway (It was an F1 I think)

 

Either way, it's not all that impractical /unless/ you're completely defensive ... then obviously you're screwed, no doubt about it. The same happens in LOMAC, too.

 

 

Yeah, but I seriously doubt the F1 would have escaped mate. ;) (BTW, the Iraqis used predominantly French BVR and WVR A-A missiles in 1991, the Iraqis believed the ~95 F1s were their most capable fighters)

 

I look at it a bit differently, I tend to think it's not all that practical a technique either, for the simple reason (already stated by SK) that in practice, you’ll be facing more than one fighter's radar.

 

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

[zzzspace]

All I could say is with a plain head on the F-15 always wins.

 

All I can say is that you seriously need to adopt some new missile avoidance techniques if that’s the case for you. :wink:

 

Inside 20Km with circumstances I explained in my last post.

 

 

What can one say? The world and military tech isn't meant to be 'fair'. :P And crashing a missile into the sea is trashing a missile, not a terminal missile avoidance manoeuvre.

 

Anyway, this discussion has got what to do with missile guidance and ballistics? This is not the thread for this stuff.

[Sharpshooter]

Particulary I think that firing multiple AMRAAMs is not the best tactic, if thats what you are doing.

 

 

Nope, I was using just one pitbull launched AIM-120 in the air at a time against the lead Su-30s (there were two, one trailing several miles), The first pitbull missile missed the closest Su but the second missile killed it, however the second Su-30 manoeuvred aggressively against the AIM-120 and lost it while dumping decoys, but once the Su had finished its missile avoidance turns it was now facing toward me more squarely :!: ... once I saw the AIM-120 miss I launched an AIM-9M at about 2.5 nm range, head to head, but the Su got off an R-73 a second later. I was super-sonic with full tanks and externals so couldn't turn (I had just topped up the tanks), and he was in an energy sink from the turns and could not escape, so we both got hit

 

(yeah, should have dropped external tanks but the Su's were going after my tanker and getting very close to launch distance ... :shock: )

 

Finally some actual eivdence.

 

Range when you fired your first 120 ? Aspect ? You mean pitbull as radar lock, then seeker going active then drop lock ?, or you mean maddog, 120 fired without radar lock ?

 

All I could say is with a plain head on the F-15 always wins.

 

Look man, this is simply untrue. Go online and fly an F-15, throw AMRAAMs at people. Most will get blown up when you launch inside of 10nm, but you'll find a bunch of guys out there who'll trash it every time and slap you with an ET or something.

The AI isn't smart enough to do what a player can.

 

Remember that now the ETs don´t have datalink. The disadvantage of that is that people get warned the very first moment the 120 is released, that´s why they are able to defeat it. The defeat it´s because it´s energy is very low compared when launched from 10nm, so they manuever, a little chaff to the recipe, and it´s done. Remember that the netcode could be actually be making the missile less effective.

 

Better than making tha 120 deadlier, is to make it´s launch realistic. The target A/C shouldn´t have warning until the seeker goes active, nobody seemed to be bothered by that, in my opinion it is a huge advantage.

 

I´m claiming the same thing for Russian SARH (don´t know about AIM-7), they claim the missiles have datalink, but what it is good for if the launching platform always sends the seekers guiding signal from the very first moment of launch, instead of sending it in the terminal phase like it says in those Datasheets (Datalink guidance for mid-course, and terminal SARH homing) The way it is modeled now the targets RWR is lit up from the very first moment of the launch, the other way only in terminal flight (at a predefined distance fo the missile from the target). This gives the arget less reaction time.

[Nomad]

bleh. Its very easy to defeat a single AMRAAM fired from a close range like say 10-15 km. Lets say you see the F-15 or know where he is at the moment the amraam has been fired. Lock him up (you do have time), fire something like an ET and turn so that the missile is on your 3 or 9. Watch your speed, so that it is about 1000kph. Fly straight for a while, until the emission power thing on the SPO-15 shows 85% (2-3 lights left). Then bank towards the missile and pull the stick as hard as you can, and release some chaff. In most cases the aim-120 will just pass you, you might even see it from your cockpit. Simple as that. And you arent turned with your 6 to him, so you can attack him. Ofcourse if he fires multiple amraams, then you are in trouble, so you should always fire at him as early as possible.

[Sharpshooter]

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

 

Not if you use right. Beaming for me, is only useful for breaking SARH locks in terminal phase. Look at the way the AI employs it, it seems to have a sixth sense for knowing when the SARH missile is aboput to hit. When it´s about to hit they beam, break the lock, trash the missile. They get back and shoot you ARH missile :evil: . If you use the technic I said of looking up with you radar then you can´t be notched, but be aware that you end up in a bad position if there are more enemy fighters.

 

I have a story when I was a young F4 pilot. Two Mig-25s notched me then fly straight towards me, notch again, until they were very close to me, as I didn´t see them with my radar, I had no EOS(F-16 don´t anyway :P), and I didn´t have a visual on them, adcquiring them was not easy. So as they were two and I was one scared little F-16 pilot they shot me down with it´s silent IR missiles. That is the end of what happened but bear in mind two Mig-29s were coming up, if I didn´t finish with the two Mig-25s they would kill me in no time when I were dealing with Mig-29s. If I tried to finish the Mig-25s the Mig-29s would splash me in no time, and the sky was pretty big to be maddoging AMRAAMs all over the place. All that if you don´t bear in mind that I had only 1 AMRAAM for each of them. Yes, you F4 pilots got it right is the AMRAAM training TE.

 

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

[Sharpshooter]

bleh. Its very easy to defeat a single AMRAAM fired from a close range like say 10-15 km. Lets say you see the F-15 or know where he is at the moment the amraam has been fired. Lock him up (you do have time), fire something like an ET and turn so that the missile is on your 3 or 9. Watch your speed, so that it is about 1000kph. Fly straight for a while, until the emission power thing on the SPO-15 shows 85% (2-3 lights left). Then bank towards the missile and pull the stick as hard as you can, and release some chaff. In most cases the aim-120 will just pass you, you might even see it from your cockpit. Simple as that. And you arent turned with your 6 to him, so you can attack him. Ofcourse if he fires multiple amraams, then you are in trouble, so you should always fire at him as early as possible.

 

Yeah, Hard meneuvering is the way to go, but it doesn´t always work, you have to bear in mind you assume you know where the missile is by the F-15s radar emission power, but what if he turned away because he saw that big big smoke the R-27ET left, instead you didn´t see no smoke from his 120, it´s pretty tough to gain a tally on the missile without padlock. Also it is that Hard maneuver or nothing, if you didn´t time it right, you are toast.

[zzzspace]

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

 

Not if you use right. Beaming for me, is only useful for breaking SARH locks in terminal phase. Look at the way the AI employs it, it seems to have a sixth sense for knowing when the SARH missile is aboput to hit. When it´s about to hit they beam, break the lock, trash the missile. They get back and shoot you ARH missile :evil: . If you use the technic I said of looking up with you radar then you can´t be notched, but be aware that you end up in a bad position if there are more enemy fighters.

 

I have a story when I was a young F4 pilot. Two Mig-25s notched me then fly straight towards me, notch again, until they were very close to me, as I didn´t see them with my radar, I had no EOS(F-16 don´t anyway :P), and I didn´t have a visual on them, adcquiring them was not easy. So as they were two and I was one scared little F-16 pilot they shot me down with it´s silent IR missiles. That is the end of what happened but bear in mind two Mig-29s were coming up, if I didn´t finish with the two Mig-25s they would kill me in no time when I were dealing with Mig-29s. If I tried to finish the Mig-25s the Mig-29s would splash me in no time, and the sky was pretty big to be maddoging AMRAAMs all over the place. All that if you don´t bear in mind that I had only 1 AMRAAM for each of them. Yes, you F4 pilots got it right is the AMRAAM training TE.

 

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

 

 

Good grief, you do realise I'm referring to using it in real life, don't you? i.e., "in PRACTICE".

[zzzspace]

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

 

The thread is not on fire, its totally hijacked.

[Sharpshooter]

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

 

Not if you use right. Beaming for me, is only useful for breaking SARH locks in terminal phase. Look at the way the AI employs it, it seems to have a sixth sense for knowing when the SARH missile is aboput to hit. When it´s about to hit they beam, break the lock, trash the missile. They get back and shoot you ARH missile :evil: . If you use the technic I said of looking up with you radar then you can´t be notched, but be aware that you end up in a bad position if there are more enemy fighters.

 

I have a story when I was a young F4 pilot. Two Mig-25s notched me then fly straight towards me, notch again, until they were very close to me, as I didn´t see them with my radar, I had no EOS(F-16 don´t anyway :P), and I didn´t have a visual on them, adcquiring them was not easy. So as they were two and I was one scared little F-16 pilot they shot me down with it´s silent IR missiles. That is the end of what happened but bear in mind two Mig-29s were coming up, if I didn´t finish with the two Mig-25s they would kill me in no time when I were dealing with Mig-29s. If I tried to finish the Mig-25s the Mig-29s would splash me in no time, and the sky was pretty big to be maddoging AMRAAMs all over the place. All that if you don´t bear in mind that I had only 1 AMRAAM for each of them. Yes, you F4 pilots got it right is the AMRAAM training TE.

 

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

 

 

Good grief, you do realise I'm referring to using it in real life, don't you? i.e., "in PRACTICE".

 

Mmm, no, I didn`t realize, but if it were possible (as many claim it is) those are some of the ways to use it. And don´t you think that if it didn´t work like that then real pilots wouldn´t bother to try it in first place, and if it worked then there are some ways to efficiently use it, making your statement that beaming in practice is getting yourself killed really, well, pointless, unless you back it up with a source.

 

PS: When I said on fire I meant that, we are continiously posting on it. We meaybe not talking about missiles ballistics and logic, but we certainly do talk abpout everthing that revolves around missiles(ie. tactics, radar, ect.), I consider those topics as important and that are worth mentioning in this thread.

[Nomad]

bleh. Its very easy to defeat a single AMRAAM fired from a close range like say 10-15 km. Lets say you see the F-15 or know where he is at the moment the amraam has been fired. Lock him up (you do have time), fire something like an ET and turn so that the missile is on your 3 or 9. Watch your speed, so that it is about 1000kph. Fly straight for a while, until the emission power thing on the SPO-15 shows 85% (2-3 lights left). Then bank towards the missile and pull the stick as hard as you can, and release some chaff. In most cases the aim-120 will just pass you, you might even see it from your cockpit. Simple as that. And you arent turned with your 6 to him, so you can attack him. Ofcourse if he fires multiple amraams, then you are in trouble, so you should always fire at him as early as possible.

 

Yeah, Hard meneuvering is the way to go, but it doesn´t always work, you have to bear in mind you assume you know where the missile is by the F-15s radar emission power, but what if he turned away because he saw that big big smoke the R-27ET left, instead you didn´t see no smoke from his 120, it´s pretty tough to gain a tally on the missile without padlock. Also it is that Hard maneuver or nothing, if you didn´t time it right, you are toast.

 

I guess you dont quite understand what I mean. The SPO-15 will always show you where the missile is because it has its own radar, and what the F-15 is doing has absolutely nothing to do with it. Hence you dont need to look for any smoke from his missiles. You will see a lock and launch warning followed by a rapid increase in emission power. That means the ARH missile is on its way. You just need to do what i desciber above and make a sharp turn towards the missile when its about 85-90%. And I dont see how, considering all this, is it possible to time it wrong??

[SwingKid]

It’s practically impossible to fly, let alone to fool a modern A-A radar to filter you out. Personally, I think this is an interesting theoretical possibility only, and not an actual flyable practical countering technique.

 

Source?

 

err, I thought I made it fairly clear;

 

"practically impossible", i.e meaning in actual practice; and "I think this...", i.e. meaning I was stating an opinion about the likelihood of making this work in practice"

 

To me that overall technique looks to be a high probability recipe for getting shotdown in short order.

 

Even opinions can be based on something, like, practical experience with radar, or something read in a book, or a conversation with a pilot, or even experience in other sims.

 

Everything I've read and heard indicates the Doppler notch is a quite real and common phenomenon. We didn't invent this concept for sims - it came to us from the practical world of military tactics. I've read of Harrier pilots using it against German MiG-29s, Soviet pilots in Germany using it against F-15s during the Cold War, a Hungarian NATO pilot using it against F-16s, Eagles and Hornets using it against each other in training... It's described in the MiG-29 flight manual and numerous radar textbooks, modelled in the higher-fidelity sims, and seems to make intuitive sense. Why would anyone make it up?

 

-SK

[Sharpshooter]

bleh. Its very easy to defeat a single AMRAAM fired from a close range like say 10-15 km. Lets say you see the F-15 or know where he is at the moment the amraam has been fired. Lock him up (you do have time), fire something like an ET and turn so that the missile is on your 3 or 9. Watch your speed, so that it is about 1000kph. Fly straight for a while, until the emission power thing on the SPO-15 shows 85% (2-3 lights left). Then bank towards the missile and pull the stick as hard as you can, and release some chaff. In most cases the aim-120 will just pass you, you might even see it from your cockpit. Simple as that. And you arent turned with your 6 to him, so you can attack him. Ofcourse if he fires multiple amraams, then you are in trouble, so you should always fire at him as early as possible.

 

Yeah, Hard meneuvering is the way to go, but it doesn´t always work, you have to bear in mind you assume you know where the missile is by the F-15s radar emission power, but what if he turned away because he saw that big big smoke the R-27ET left, instead you didn´t see no smoke from his 120, it´s pretty tough to gain a tally on the missile without padlock. Also it is that Hard maneuver or nothing, if you didn´t time it right, you are toast.

 

I guess you dont quite understand what I mean. The SPO-15 will always show you where the missile is because it has its own radar, and what the F-15 is doing has absolutely nothing to do with it. Hence you dont need to look for any smoke from his missiles. You will see a lock and launch warning followed by a rapid increase in emission power. That means the ARH missile is on its way. You just need to do what i desciber above and make a sharp turn towards the missile when its about 85-90%. And I dont see how, considering all this, is it possible to time it wrong??

 

I was wrong, OK ??? Question is if the SPO-15 always shows emission from the missile(ARH), ie because it is the most dangerous target or because it is an ARH, I think it is and then I think you are right. I didn´t consider that before.

[zzzspace]

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

 

Not if you use right. Beaming for me, is only useful for breaking SARH locks in terminal phase. Look at the way the AI employs it, it seems to have a sixth sense for knowing when the SARH missile is aboput to hit. When it´s about to hit they beam, break the lock, trash the missile. They get back and shoot you ARH missile :evil: . If you use the technic I said of looking up with you radar then you can´t be notched, but be aware that you end up in a bad position if there are more enemy fighters.

 

I have a story when I was a young F4 pilot. Two Mig-25s notched me then fly straight towards me, notch again, until they were very close to me, as I didn´t see them with my radar, I had no EOS(F-16 don´t anyway :P), and I didn´t have a visual on them, adcquiring them was not easy. So as they were two and I was one scared little F-16 pilot they shot me down with it´s silent IR missiles. That is the end of what happened but bear in mind two Mig-29s were coming up, if I didn´t finish with the two Mig-25s they would kill me in no time when I were dealing with Mig-29s. If I tried to finish the Mig-25s the Mig-29s would splash me in no time, and the sky was pretty big to be maddoging AMRAAMs all over the place. All that if you don´t bear in mind that I had only 1 AMRAAM for each of them. Yes, you F4 pilots got it right is the AMRAAM training TE.

 

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

 

 

Good grief, you do realise I'm referring to using it in real life, don't you? i.e., "in PRACTICE".

 

Mmm, no, I didn`t realize, but if it were possible (as many claim it is) those are some of the ways to use it. And don´t you think that if it didn´t work like that then real pilots wouldn´t bother to try it in first place, and if it worked then there are some ways to efficiently use it, making your statement that beaming in practice is getting yourself killed really, well, pointless, unless you back it up with a source.

 

PS: When I said on fire I meant that, we are continiously posting on it. We meaybe not talking about missiles ballistics and logic, but we certainly do talk abpout everthing that revolves around missiles(ie. tactics, radar, ect.), I consider those topics as important and that are worth mentioning in this thread.

 

 

Where did I say anything about;

 

"...making your statement that beaming in practice is getting yourself killed .."

 

I said NOTHING about beaming (because beaming is extremely effective for a number of well established reasons).

 

I spoke only in relation to DOPPLER NOTCHING; there is huge difference.

 

If you don't want to discuss the topic of this thread, then start another thread about a topic which you do want to discuss.

[zzzspace]

It’s practically impossible to fly, let alone to fool a modern A-A radar to filter you out. Personally, I think this is an interesting theoretical possibility only, and not an actual flyable practical countering technique.

 

Source?

 

err, I thought I made it fairly clear;

 

"practically impossible", i.e meaning in actual practice; and "I think this...", i.e. meaning I was stating an opinion about the likelihood of making this work in practice"

 

To me that overall technique looks to be a high probability recipe for getting shotdown in short order.

 

Even opinions can be based on something, like, practical experience with radar, or something read in a book, or a conversation with a pilot, or even experience in other sims.

 

Everything I've read and heard indicates the Doppler notch is a quite real and common phenomenon. We didn't invent this concept for sims - it came to us from the practical world of military tactics. I've read of Harrier pilots using it against German MiG-29s, Soviet pilots in Germany using it against F-15s during the Cold War, a Hungarian NATO pilot using it against F-16s, Eagles and Hornets using it against each other in training... It's described in the MiG-29 flight manual and numerous radar textbooks, modelled in the higher-fidelity sims, and seems to make intuitive sense. Why would anyone make it up?

 

-SK

 

Who said anything about "making it up"? I sure didn’t, so what are you talking about?

 

As even yourself pointed-out earlier, with more than one attack radar to deal with it ain't gonna work, hence it's not a healthy technique to choose to use in practice, particularly in a current datalinked A-A environment. You are not suddenly going to disappear. You may briefly confuse a sensor, but that is more likely to occur in conjunction with and because of ECM, not via Doppler notching alone.

 

Hence it’s an interesting theoretical possibility. No one was actually shooting at the other guy in the examples you listed. Don't mistake the textbook conceptual possibility of exploiting Doppler notch for a wise tactical manoeuvre if a real missile is heading for you.

[Sharpshooter]

I say with some confidence, that in practice, using it is a recipe for getting shotdown fast.

 

Not if you use right. Beaming for me, is only useful for breaking SARH locks in terminal phase. Look at the way the AI employs it, it seems to have a sixth sense for knowing when the SARH missile is aboput to hit. When it´s about to hit they beam, break the lock, trash the missile. They get back and shoot you ARH missile :evil: . If you use the technic I said of looking up with you radar then you can´t be notched, but be aware that you end up in a bad position if there are more enemy fighters.

 

I have a story when I was a young F4 pilot. Two Mig-25s notched me then fly straight towards me, notch again, until they were very close to me, as I didn´t see them with my radar, I had no EOS(F-16 don´t anyway :P), and I didn´t have a visual on them, adcquiring them was not easy. So as they were two and I was one scared little F-16 pilot they shot me down with it´s silent IR missiles. That is the end of what happened but bear in mind two Mig-29s were coming up, if I didn´t finish with the two Mig-25s they would kill me in no time when I were dealing with Mig-29s. If I tried to finish the Mig-25s the Mig-29s would splash me in no time, and the sky was pretty big to be maddoging AMRAAMs all over the place. All that if you don´t bear in mind that I had only 1 AMRAAM for each of them. Yes, you F4 pilots got it right is the AMRAAM training TE.

 

PS: This Thread is ON FIRE.

 

 

Good grief, you do realise I'm referring to using it in real life, don't you? i.e., "in PRACTICE".

 

Mmm, no, I didn`t realize, but if it were possible (as many claim it is) those are some of the ways to use it. And don´t you think that if it didn´t work like that then real pilots wouldn´t bother to try it in first place, and if it worked then there are some ways to efficiently use it, making your statement that beaming in practice is getting yourself killed really, well, pointless, unless you back it up with a source.

 

PS: When I said on fire I meant that, we are continiously posting on it. We meaybe not talking about missiles ballistics and logic, but we certainly do talk abpout everthing that revolves around missiles(ie. tactics, radar, ect.), I consider those topics as important and that are worth mentioning in this thread.

 

 

Where did I say anything about;

 

"...making your statement that beaming in practice is getting yourself killed .."

 

I said NOTHING about beaming (because beaming is extremely effective for a number of well established reasons).

 

I spoke only in relation to DOPPLER NOTCHING; there is huge difference.

 

If you don't want to discuss the topic of this thread, then start another thread about a topic which you do want to discuss.

 

I meant notch I´m sorry for the confusion.

 

I don´t think it would be practical to create threads for every sub category, but this thread is turning into a mess anyway. Regardless a lot of relevant opinions have been stated, and that should clarify lot of things about current missile modelling and what should be done in the future with it. Until the moderator´s decide what to do (if they see fit to change anything).

[Shaman]

HOJ missile logic

 

I have not read this thread entirely so maybe the answer is already here.

 

Can any 1.1 betatester check this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=38610606&m=3701068382&r=2461088382#2461088382

and answer our worries about HOJ missile logic?

Thanks in advance.

[GGTharos]

Nope, completely untrue. Two aircraft can merge, none of their actives ever having found a target.

 

HOWEVER. You'll never see me nose-on with an enemy aircraft, being fired on, and not having fired back, so please delete that assumption - it would only happen due to surprise or sleeping on the job, and both are fairly rare.

 

You can ocnsistently have a high survival rate -jsut- by applying the correct techniques at the right time ... to give you an example, I got into a tiff with a fully loaded MiG-29S. I only had a pair of 9's left (he dodged my one remaining amraam) so I fired one head on at farther range than I would have licked, then we proceeded to merge ... he had fired 4 missiles that failed to hit me, I was diving for the sea, backed out. Anyway, I pulled out, didn't know whre he was, checked six (when in doubt, check six) and hey, there he is, RIGHT there ... he fires his last 73 ... I dodge it, roll him, gun kill.

 

That's a circumstantial example though, and obviously things don't always happen this way. Still, point is, you can ensure your survival by doing the right thing at the right time.

 

Anyway ... back to ballistics. ;D

 

(Before we start, all of this assuming you have the missile efficiency slider in the ACE position)

 

Of course two aircraft can merge, but the possibilities are getting slimmer and slimmier with technology and SA.

 

When I said no missile in the air I was assuming your long range shots had failed, and you were planning to fire another as he was pointing at you. Or another assumption, you were fighting another A/C and when you finish with it you realize that there is an F-15 in the neighborhood. Or perhaps the F-15 was flying low and you´ve just found it. There are tons of situations I can think of, of course it doesn´t happen when you´ve been patrolling that area for months (Homeland defense) and that is like the first time you see something out of place.

 

Anyway it doesn´t matter if you fired or not, the point is that head on, the AMRAAM is likely to hit. Especially against the AI, they are just not good at evading missiles, they get lucky sometimes though, and sometimes is just the firing pilots fault. The only AMRAAMs being decoyed by chaff I´ve seen are the ones that barely have energy to follow their target and get a complete picture of the area (because their lead pursuit is not that, well, leading), and thus there is more possibility the missile will see the chaff, attempt to follow it for half a sec. and get the A/C out of the seeker view.

 

What the heck is 'ACE' position? I keep mine in 'realistic' position, right at 50%. REAL missiles have significant seeker settling time, more so than the 50% position even simulates. Regardless, this setting doesn't affect the techniques mentioned since defeating the missiles is kinematic, and this option doesn't change the kinematics, only the vector errors (which SHOULD BE THERE ANYWAY!)

[wsoul2k]

What can one say? The world and military tech isn't meant to be 'fair'. :P And crashing a missile into the sea is trashing a missile, not a terminal missile avoidance manoeuvre.

 

Anyway, this discussion has got what to do with missile guidance and ballistics? This is not the thread for this stuff.

 

Well IF the missile guindance and ballistics of the 120 get bether it will be more dangerous and it will be more easy for it to find its target ....so it will be more easy to always Win.....

 

I agre with sharpsshooter...is very hard to evade the 120 without loosing your lock.... this is the problem....A good F-15 pilot have more chances of win against an equal level Su-27 pilot......it is prety hard beleave me :)

 

I really wanna se some tracks about this EVANDING tecnichs i wanna learn ...

 

So if is so easy can someone post an track ?

 

I have evaded some 120 the problem is the second one.....because to have more chance on the evasive manuaver i have to Break the Lock...doing that im in a real BAD position and vunerable to the second 120 and some times to de 3 and 4 :)

 

yeah it still gonna hapen....man i hate when you get shot down by a ripple fire of 120 :evil:

 

btw......im still learning.....any tracks ? and i dont wann try it on line i wanna se the tracks against a good su-27 pilot( Im Not one yet :wink: ) vs a good f-15 pilot....

 

 

Back on topic

The 120 it is very good in dong its job......if the missile guidance and ballistics will make it bether BUT this is what the real thing is...I can live with that...but it will realy put an end on gameplay.....and people will start flying mud hunter's

 

 

sorry for the poor english cya

 

:D

[Guest ruggbutt]

The 120's have some improvements in 1.1 but they aren't significant enough for you to classify them as unspoofable, undodgeable or a definitive advantage for the 15 pilots. It's all about the employment and tactics of the player(s), especially online. I flew 1.02 last nite, where the 120's are significant but even at high altitudes I got fired upon first by a 27/33. Granted, I had time to get w/in range, fire a 120 then split S and drag the ER out that was launched on me. Still, the 120's aren't perfect and I still find the same amount of misses w/the 1.1 versions.

 

Cali (169th) is fantastic about dodging 120's. He dodged more than he ate last nite.................And as good as the R77's are I put more of them into the ground or spoofed them than I got smoked by. In fact, the damn ET's were my downfall last nite. :shock:

[enigma6584]

He said he hates the simulator.......lol. I guess if there was a choice he'd rather fly. I know I would.

 

Very true. If I could afford it, I would fly for real as well.

[SwingKid]

I said NOTHING about beaming (because beaming is extremely effective for a number of well established reasons).

 

I spoke only in relation to DOPPLER NOTCHING; there is huge difference.

 

What is that difference?

 

-SK

[Xses]

Yeah, I'd like to know too?