Switching between ABRIS and Inertial Nav

[Siinji]

Where do I select which navigation the autopilot will follow? I want it to follow the flightplan on the ABRIS, but instead it follows the navigation points.

 

These are two different navigation systems, right?

[VMFA117_Poko]

Yes, they are totally independent. If you set up new route in ABRIS you must retype waypoints coordinations into PVI-800. Autopilot follows only flightplan from PVI.

[Bobcat]

Two separate systems!! good for redundancy but not for humans lol... This sim has really opened my eyes as to the difference in thinking between red & blue.

 

BC

[yurec]

Two separate systems!! good for redundancy but not for humans lol... This sim has really opened my eyes as to the difference in thinking between red & blue.

 

BC

 

I think, it's not really difference in thinking - initially, Ka-50 had to have moving map system similar to Mi-24 (paper map with light dot). ABRIS was added later, and engineers probably didn't have time or money to integrate it with other systems properly (just a guess).

[jimiC]

siinji afaik the autopilot is only based on the INU. however your HSI will align with the ABRIS points

[Frederf]

The ABRIS is not an aircraft control system. Think of it as an electronic map and encyclopedia reference available in the cockpit. It's entirely passive and cannot control the helicopter. It's like a GPS handheld receiver only fancier and bolted to the dash.

 

It's really clear to see that the ABRIS is a really new addition to the Ka-50. It's a lot more modern than the other systems. It's also not integrated much if at all into the rest of the components.

[Siinji]

Ok, nice information from you guys. One more:

 

Is it possible to sync the Intertial system with Long and Latitude info from the ABRIS? Or do I always need some real-life fixpoints to sync with?

[nemises]

The one tie in is via the Laser designator...if you slew the Shkval and get a range by firing the laser (ground stabalise or target lock), you'll see the area marked on the ABRIS also. These points can be stored by the datalink memory system.

 

Target points stored in the PVI800 are able to be understood by the Shvkal / Prenshal (?) system, as seen by the auto slew that occurs if you uncage the shkval with a TP selected on the PVI800

 

It Stands to reason, that it is possible, by using the targeting system as a middle man, that information can be passed between the PVI800 (INU) and the ABRIS, and also by the Datalink system, so they are not as completely seperate as some are saying.

 

It seems like , just a little more development on the integration is all that is required to have the two in sync.

 

Shame really, though, I think it adds to the charm of the KA50..that prototype feel :)

[Bobcat]

Nemises

 

Good observation.

 

Tried it tonight and you can enter tgt points into the PVI800 using the laser which show up on the ABRIS. It's then a matter of sharing the info with others via the datalink.

 

Page 7-5 onwards

 

Takes a bit of work though :)

 

BC

[GGTharos]

In general, information passes from INU to ABRIS, and not the other way around.

I believe the only exception to this is that the ABRIS fixes INU errors automatically while operating with a good GLONASS/GPS signal.

 

If you want to sync INU to ABRIS, you must enter the Long/Lat manually into the PVI for each waypoint/target point, as you read them off from ABRIS.

[boomshekah]

Hi all, first post here.

Why can you only enter 6 NAV points into the PVI800? Seems a bit limited to me. Is it by design or some sort of hardware limitation?

[GGTharos]

Hardware limitation. It only has so many memory slots for entering waypoints.

[Esac_mirmidon]

One question about that.

 

When you use the editor to insert a flight plan, the waypoints are stored both in the ABRIS and in the PVI-800? So they are the same and are sync?

 

Or the flight plan showed in the ABRIS is different from the flight plan you can see in the PVI-800 pushing the WP buttons in sequence?

 

Also you can confirm that the INU is alligned only with ABRIS flight plan?

[GGTharos]

Yes I can confirm that the autopilot and PVI and INU do not deal with the ABRIS in terms of waypoints and flight plans.

 

When you use the ME, the WP's are stored in both systems - the same sets of coordinates, so they will be in sync. But they are still different systems. If you exceed 6 WP's (excluding takeoff and landing) in the ME, your PVI will only have the first 6 WP's stored.

[boomshekah]

Thanks for your quick reply GGTharos.

 

 

Nemises

 

Good observation.

 

Tried it tonight and you can enter tgt points into the PVI800 using the laser which show up on the ABRIS. It's then a matter of sharing the info with others via the datalink.

 

Page 7-5 onwards

 

Takes a bit of work though :)

 

BC

 

Got another question(sorry for beeing a pain;))

In order to be able to automatically slew my shkval to a trgt point it has to be stored in the PVI800, right?

 

I cannot automatically slew it to trgts stored in the ABRIS?

 

If i send a trgt point via datalink to a wingman, will it automatically be entered into his PVI800 or does he have to do it manually?

[GGTharos]

Use the PVI target point transfer and datalink procedure for this - it must be done so on both ends. If you just transfer a shkval target it won't work.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Thanks GG...

[Frederf]

The ABRIS is pretty good about receiving data from the rest of the aircraft, but I do not any instance where other systems are affected by the ABRIS. Information tends to flow into the ABRIS, not out.

[Madmatt_BFC]

I have spent a great deal of time getting into the inner workings of the Datalink system and the ABRIS and figured out some cool little tricks.

 

To answer the question above about autoslewing to a ABRIS target, actually you can. You do it by using the PRTz Datalink's "INGRESS" button/function. Here is how.

 

First, store the target you want in your ABRIS. This can be an Ingress Point, an armored vehicle, a SAM vehicle/position or the "other" type. If you don't already have a position stored in the ABRIS (for instance if one of your wingies already sent it to you via the PRTz Datalink) just use the Shkval to lock up the position, select what sort of "target" you want it to be (armored vehicle, SAM, 'other' or an Ingress Point) then click on the PRTz SEND key to add the position to your ABRIS display. Now, reset the targetting system (you can actually just recenter the Shkval, you don't have to turn it off), select the target using the proper PRTz button. Once you see it flashing on your ABRIS, click the PRTz INGRESS button. The target will now have a cross over it. Now, uncage the Shkval (O key) and it will automatically track to that designated point.

 

Now, if you select the "turn to target" function, your helicopter will also rotate to that position as well.

 

Once you lock up the target, you should click the INGRESS button again to turn it off.

 

Remember, once you deal with the first target, you have to have the Shkval either caged (off) or reset it to center before you can start the process over again and get the next target location to *blink* (be selected) on the ABRIS.

 

So, it's reset or recenter the Shkval, then select the target position you want to slew towards on the PRTz panel, then click the Ingress button, and then uncage Shkval (and activate "turn to target" if you desire) and click the Ingress button again to turn it off. If done properly, the target position will be dead center in your Shkval's targeting gates, awaiting you to unleash hell as you see fit! ;)

 

I use this process all the time, and by doing it this way, there is no need to send the targeting position data to the PVI-800 as a TP, although you can do that too and that process is detailed in the manual.

 

Another neat trick I have learned is to use the Datalink to get your wingmen to fly between two different points that you designate on the ABRIS. The key is to place an ingress point on the ABRIS and then a target point. Remember, you don't have to designate a LIVE target, you can designate ANYTHING you want and make it a target point. If it's not a real target, your wingman will still fly to that location via the Ingress point and then come back to you. Just remember to send him via the datalink the target point first and then the Ingress point you want him to use.

 

Using this system, you can basically get him to fly to two different waypoints in sequence. First he flys to the ingress point and then on to the target point and then he returns to you. Doesn't have much practical use at this time, but it is fun to do. You can actually make him loiter at a fixed position, then send him to an Ingress point and then to an attack point and I think he will return back to his loiter position as well. I will need to test that some more. I know I got one of my wingmen to do something like that before.

 

Madmatt

Edited December 22, 2008 by Madmatt_BFC

[Bobcat]

Madmatt

 

Nice research, under what circumstances will the Shkval tack to a pre-designated position? I didn't realise it would do that and it may explain why it seems to have a mind of its own on occasions.

 

Cheers

 

Bob

[GGTharos]

Interesting - it does make some sense since the ABRIS target isn't really an ABRIS target - it's delivered through the datalink system which is hooked into the INS.

 

Good work!

[Madmatt_BFC]

If you have a Target Postion (TP) selected in the PVI-800 and you uncage the Shkval, it will autoslew to that position (or as close to it as it can get, sometimes its beyond visual range of course).

 

The other way to get it to autoslew is using the Ingress button on the PRTz Datalink in conjunction with the ABRIS as I described above.

 

Of course, you can also use your HMS system.

 

In fact, when I am in a controlled hover and I don't feel like screwing with using my rudder pedals, I will activate my Helmet Mounted Site, look over in the direction I want to yaw to, uncage the Shkval (which then tracks to the HMS spot) and then select the "turn to target" button. Voilla, my bird does a nice controlled spin to the new location and I didn't have to stretch my toes to use my pedals! ;)

 

Madmatt

[Madmatt_BFC]

Interesting - it does make some sense since the ABRIS target isn't really an ABRIS target - it's delivered through the datalink system which is hooked into the INS.

 

Good work!

 

Right, it's just an abstract coordinate point.

 

The ABRIS doesn't care what's REALLY at that location. It's just a referenced point in space to it (generated via the Shkval and the laser range finder, which feeds back to the INS system I guess) and the PRTz Ingress function is there to point you in that direction.

 

I remember how I figured this all out actually. I was playing online doing some MP datalink testing and it frustrated me that I could use the PVI-800's to autoslew to a TP point, yet there didn't seem to be a way to do it to a Datalink target. I sat up all night thinking about this and then read about the PRTz's Ingress button functionality (meant to orientate the craft to a designated PVI-800 TP while en-route apparently) then did some more testing and worked this all out.

 

 

Madmatt

Edited December 21, 2008 by Madmatt_BFC

[boomshekah]

Wow, great information, thanks Madmatt.

[Madmatt_BFC]

By the way, I know that some people have mentioned that at times it seems that the Shkval will constantly move all on its own. This is not the auto-sweep function either (activated by hitting the uncage button a second time) which just pans side to side. This is something different all-together that I am referring to.

 

I have seen this same thing occur before as well and seems to occasionally happen right after engaging a moving ground target. It doesn't matter if I enable/disable the autotrack switch either. The only way to get the Shkval sensor to stop moving (and it always moves along the relative motion of the former target) is to cage it back up and then uncage it again. Simply moving the sensor in any direction or even re-centering as some have suggested doesn't seem to do anything.

 

I have to say, knowing what I know about how the Shkval is supposed to work, this would appear to be a bug but I am not 100% certain just yet. I will try and get this recorded as a trk file so others can have a look.

 

Madmatt

Edited December 22, 2008 by Madmatt_BFC