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The F-35 Thread


Groove

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Oh yes, because an IR missile fired at medium range will apparently have more PK, especially when the target can easily react with flares.

 

IRST isn't a god weapon, just like the F-22 isn't a god weapon.

Actually I never said it would, but if you think a modern IR AAM with a state of the art focal array can't tell the difference between a little ball of fire and an aircraft, think again.

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I know it's fun to speculate on how these aircraft are going to dogfight against an adversary with extremely advanced technology, but in my opinion the F-35 is going to be avoiding any sort of fight unless it's coming in knowing it has the upper hand, since it's a strike aircraft first.

 

And when your talking about a U.S. Air Force F-35, because of the network it's going to be plugged into, your going to get a different type of fighter than say another allied countries F-35 that may not be plugged into a network as wide scale as the U.S. military.

 

In short, depending on the customer and their backup warfightning networks that will integrate with the F-35, your mileage may vary.

 

Because when you look at the extensive space network the U.S. has, I can see where the individual F-35's as part of the network may be more effective than F-35's outside of such a network.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse_(satellite)

 

It has been said[citation needed] that the B-2 bomber was originally intended to use directly down-linked targeting data from Lacrosse satellites in order to aid it in its role of hunting down and destroying Soviet mobile ICBM launchers. It had been anticipated that the Lacrosse satellites would be replaced by the radar component of the Future Imagery Architecture (FIA). The severe program problems encountered by FIA in the early 2000s (decade) appear to have led to off-loading of radar reconnaissance to the Space Based Radar, later simplified to Space Radar, with initial launch anticipated around 2015.[7] This program itself was axed by Congress late 2008.[5] The launch of NROL-41 (USA 215) in September 2010 has all orbital characteristics of a radar remote sensing platform (see FIA) and could be the first of a Lacrosse follow-up program. Its orbit is a retrograde version of the "frozen" Lacrosse orbit,[8] the choice for a retrograde orbit itself indicating a SAR role

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=progress%20in%20space%20acquisition&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.au.af.mil%2Fau%2Fawc%2Fawcgate%2Faf%2Faf_hdbk_cong%2Fspace.pdf&ei=EgUxUYjlItGL0QGVhYDIBw&usg=AFQjCNGlBYmZ1gT0uimmBCZQB8t-JMoeaw&bvm=bv.43148975,d.dmQ

 

CCS space jamming system and locator:

 

Counter Communications

 

System (CCS):

Three systems delivered in FY04. Declared operational in Sep



 

2004. Systems will be upgraded in FY05-07. Definition and development of CCS Block 20 will begin in FY06

 

Rapid Attack Identification

 

Detection and Reporting



 

System (RAIDRS):

Development contract awarded in Feb 05 for RAIDRS Spiral 1, which will provide groundbased



capabilities to detect and geolocate interference to DoD owned and used satellite communications. IOC for


RAIDRS Spiral 1 is anticipated I

n late FY07

 

 

For CCS Satellite system, used for space based jamming and location of enemy jamming attempts:

 

 

 

Air Force’s primary source for critical planning, technology maturation/insertion, and system

acquisition in support of Air Force space control systems, both offensive and defensive counterspace systems, and associated command and control to meet current and future military space control needs.



• Offensive Counterspace Systems include the means to disrupt, deny, degrade, or destroy an adversary’s space


systems or the information they provide which may be used for purposes hostile to US National Security interests. Current program is (CCS)

• Defensive Counterspace Systems include both active and passive measures to protect U.S. space systems from natural threats and enemy attempts to negate or interfere with space operations. Current program is

 

 

RAIDRS.

 

 

 

CCS is a transportable system designed to disrupt satellite-based communications, using reversible,

nondestructive means



• RAIDRS will be a family of systems being designed to detect, report, identify, locate,and classify attacks against


our military space assets. RAIDRS will include detection

sensors, information processors, and a reporting architecture. The RAIDRS system will detect and report

attacks on both ground and space-based elements of operational space systems. It will notify operators and users,

and carry information to

 

decision-makers

 

 

DSCS III

 

Mission:

 

 

• Provides worldwide, responsive wideband communications

with some anti-jam satellite capabilities supporting strategic

and tactical Command, Control, Communications, & Intelligence (C3I) requirements.

 

 

Performance Parameters:

 

 

• Provide secure and high data rate Super High Frequency

(SHF) communications.

• Users include National and Senior Leadership, Defense

Information System Network,Diplomatic Telecommunications

Service, White House, Air Force Satellite Control Network,

and Service ground mobile

forces.

 

 

Milstar:

 

 

 

Performance Parameters:

 

 

Low Probability of Intercept/Detection (LPI/D), Anti-Jam (AJ), and Anti-Scintillation

(AS) protected communications at low and medium data rates

 

 

 

(LDR and MDR), Crosslinks

 

Space Radar:

 

 

 

 

Payload: Satellites notionally equipped with Electronically

 

 

Scanned Array (ESA) to provide:

• Synthetic Aperture Radar

(SAR) Imagery

• Surface Moving Target

Indication (SMTI)

• High Resolution Terrain

Information (HRTI)

 

 

Tasking, Collection

 

Processing, Exploitation,

 

Dissemination:

 

 

 

 

 

Dynamic tasking capability including theater-based tasking, machineto-machine interfaces, timely

data dissemination, cross-cueing to airbourne ISR to complement

 

 

tracking, and data processing compliant with communications

links and imagery processing standards

 

 

 

Launch

 

 

Now what I'm implying is what's to stop the F-35 from having the benefit of a space radar datalink that's going to show formations where enemy aircraft are and their heading? Or jamming sources and their location? If such is the case, I can either avoid them using the data, or set up for an ambush, without even having to turn on my radar. Having the high ground of space integrated with a system like the F-35 is a game changer, regardless of it's close in maneuvrability and dogfighting skills, but if the allied country has no acces to such systems, I still think the F-35 adds a lot of capability to that airforce, it's just not as big of a bargain that the U.S. is getting because of the available network the U.S. will be using the F-35 in.

 

 

 


Edited by Invader ZIM
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I know it's fun to speculate on how these aircraft are going to dogfight against an adversary with extremely advanced technology, but in my opinion the F-35 is going to be avoiding any sort of fight unless it's coming in knowing it has the upper hand, since it's a strike aircraft first.

 

And when your talking about a U.S. Air Force F-35, because of the network it's going to be plugged into, your going to get a different type of fighter than say another allied countries F-35 that may not be plugged into a network as wide scale as the U.S. military.

 

In short, depending on the customer and their backup warfightning networks that will integrate with the F-35, your mileage may vary.

 

Because when you look at the extensive space network the U.S. has, I can see where the individual F-35's as part of the network may be more effective than F-35's outside of such a network.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse_(satellite)

 

It has been said[citation needed] that the B-2 bomber was originally intended to use directly down-linked targeting data from Lacrosse satellites in order to aid it in its role of hunting down and destroying Soviet mobile ICBM launchers. It had been anticipated that the Lacrosse satellites would be replaced by the radar component of the Future Imagery Architecture (FIA). The severe program problems encountered by FIA in the early 2000s (decade) appear to have led to off-loading of radar reconnaissance to the Space Based Radar, later simplified to Space Radar, with initial launch anticipated around 2015.[7] This program itself was axed by Congress late 2008.[5] The launch of NROL-41 (USA 215) in September 2010 has all orbital characteristics of a radar remote sensing platform (see FIA) and could be the first of a Lacrosse follow-up program. Its orbit is a retrograde version of the "frozen" Lacrosse orbit,[8] the choice for a retrograde orbit itself indicating a SAR role

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=progress%20in%20space%20acquisition&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.au.af.mil%2Fau%2Fawc%2Fawcgate%2Faf%2Faf_hdbk_cong%2Fspace.pdf&ei=EgUxUYjlItGL0QGVhYDIBw&usg=AFQjCNGlBYmZ1gT0uimmBCZQB8t-JMoeaw&bvm=bv.43148975,d.dmQ

 

CCS space jamming system and locator:

 

Counter Communications



System (CCS): Three

systems delivered in FY04.

Declared operational in Sep

2004. Systems will be

upgraded in FY05-07.

Definition and development

of CCS Block 20 will begin in

FY06

Rapid Attack Identification

Detection and Reporting

System (RAIDRS):

Development contract awarded



in Feb 05 for RAIDRS Spiral 1,

which will provide groundbased

capabilities to detect

and geolocate interference to

DoD owned and used satellite

communications. IOC for

RAIDRS Spiral 1 is anticipated

in late FY07

 

For CCS Satellite system, used for space based jamming and location of enemy jamming attempts:

 

Air Force’s primary source for



critical planning, technology

maturation/insertion, and system

acquisition in support of Air

Force space control systems,

both offensive and defensive

counterspace systems, and associated

command and control to

meet current and future military

space control needs.

• Offensive Counterspace

Systems include the means

to disrupt, deny, degrade, or

destroy an adversary’s space

systems or the information they

provide which may be used for

purposes hostile to US National

Security interests. Current

program is (CCS)

• Defensive Counterspace

Systems include both active

and passive measures to protect

U.S. space systems from natural

threats and enemy attempts to

negate or interfere with space

operations. Current program is

RAIDRS.

 

CCS is a transportable



system designed to disrupt

satellite-based communications,

using reversible,

nondestructive means

• RAIDRS will be a family

of systems being designed to

detect, report, identify, locate,

and classify attacks against

our military space assets.

RAIDRS will include detection

sensors, information

processors, and a reporting

architecture. The RAIDRS

system will detect and report

attacks on both ground and

space-based elements of

operational space systems. It

will notify operators and users,

and carry information to

decision-makers

 

DSCS III

 

Mission:

• Provides worldwide, responsive



wideband communications

with some anti-jam satellite

capabilities supporting strategic

and tactical Command, Control,

Communications, &

Intelligence (C3I) requirements.

Performance Parameters:

• Provide secure and high data



rate Super High Frequency

(SHF) communications.

• Users include National and

Senior Leadership, Defense

Information System Network,

Diplomatic Telecommunications

Service, White House, Air

Force Satellite Control Network,

and Service ground mobile

forces.

 

Milstar:

 

Performance Parameters:

Low Probability of Intercept/



Detection (LPI/D), Anti-Jam

(AJ), and Anti-Scintillation

(AS) protected communications

at low and medium data rates

(LDR and MDR), Crosslinks

 

Space Radar:

 

Payload: Satellites notionally



equipped with Electronically

Scanned Array (ESA) to provide:

• Synthetic Aperture Radar

(SAR) Imagery

• Surface Moving Target

Indication (SMTI)

• High Resolution Terrain

Information (HRTI)

Tasking, Collection

Processing, Exploitation,

Dissemination: Dynamic

tasking capability including

theater-based tasking, machineto-

machine interfaces, timely

data dissemination, cross-cueing

to airbourne ISR to complement

tracking, and data processing

compliant with communications

links and imagery processing

standards

Launch

 

 

 

Now what I'm implying is what's to stop the F-35 from having the benefit of a space radar datalink that's going to show formations where enemy aircraft are and their heading? If such is the case, I can either avoid them using the data, or set up for an ambush, without even having to turn on my radar. Having the high ground of space integrated with a system like the F-35 is a game changer, regardless of it's close in maneuvrability and dogfightings skills.

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exactly right man. This is what I've been telling for some time. You have to evaluate the whole SYSTEM not just one F-35 vs an Su-xx.

It's the way all those systems are integrated into one providing the pilot with information about it's surroundings in a level no one has experienced yet.

heck, even the F-22 is having trouble keeping up sensor wise with the F-35. It's going to be one very smart plane. Ah, and the F-35 can also relay info on targets to other assets.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=5800&d=1360686405

attachment.php?attachmentid=5799&d=1360686405

Satellite datalink is exactly one of the technologies routinely used. The Iranian shot drone, was controlled remotely by satellite. That's why it's felling was probably due to malfunction instead of Iranian uber tech.

 

Though the usage of space platforms vs a superpower is unlikely as I have a feeling that if such a war were to occur, space assets would be the first casualties. That's why Europe is developing GPS based on Quasar's (already exist but usually long measurements to measure continental drift). Taking the satellite away from the equation and, no jamming is effective.

 

basically, with four atomic clocks, you know where you are everywhere on the universe. And, you know the time as well.

 

 

EDIT: apparently it is possible to rep too much. I'll rep you some other time.


Edited by Maior
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Never knew about the European GPS based on Quasar's, thanks for that, something to look into now lol.

 

Don't worry about reputation, you might give me some but someone else will simply disagree and it'll be taken away lol. I don't put much stock in it, and don't judge others based on their ratings, but thanks for the thought. :D

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Never knew about the European GPS based on Quasar's, thanks for that, something to look into now lol.

 

Don't worry about reputation, you might give me some but someone else will simply disagree and it'll be taken away lol. I don't put much stock in it, and don't judge others based on their ratings, but thanks for the thought. :D

 

yeah, I actually applied for a scholarship to work in the project that sadly was not accepted (well, my fault really), and so I missed the chance of working in it. It's an offshoot of Galileo that is basically aiming at a Universal GPS coverage. By Universal I mean the entire frigging Universe. Not Global. I actually met one of the guys responsible for the project who now teaches at my former University and, this guy is a dick! But he knew his business...

You also had to sign a non-disclosure contract should you be accepted which I found pretty darn cool. :p

 

Imagine, Quasar guided bombs. Another blow to science fiction... We need more imaginative writers as most tech depicted in science-fiction, is less and less fiction and more and more science. I mean look at the transponders in star-trek. Even the most recent movies. We live in a world where in 10 years time, the possibility of having cellphones integrated in a contact lens, is not really fiction. Graphene will be the new gold...

 

Woops, got a bit sidetracked. ^^

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Specifically it is the problem of those who have based combat strategy on test and training that statistics contradict.

 

Like yourself? Because air forces base their training on things that they know will work.

 

Go back to reading class, there has already been a thread posted on it recently. The study was done by the USAF. BVR missiles have a Pk of about 40% if you take all shots. However if you take actual BVR shots, the Pk is sweet FA.
I've read this quite a while ago, and you're right. You need to go back to reading class, because you missed the train of analysis in context.

 

EO and IR systems look all round.
No, they really don't. Some of them do. By far not most of them, and those that do look all around are far more limited in range than IRSTs.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Though the usage of space platforms vs a superpower is unlikely as I have a feeling that if such a war were to occur, space assets would be the first casualties. That's why Europe is developing GPS based on Quasar's (already exist but usually long measurements to measure continental drift). Taking the satellite away from the equation and, no jamming is effective.

 

I believe you mean pulsars. Quasars are extremely luminous galactic nuclei powered by supermassive black holes; they do not emit regularly-timed signals. Pulsars, however, are tiny superdense stars that emit extremely precisely timed radio pulses at a frequency typically between ~1 Hz and ~1 kHz (pulses emitted as they spin).

 

The idea of using these instead of GPS satellites is ingenious... you can't blow them up, at least (unless Obama finally gives in and agrees to build the Death Star).

Intelligent discourse can only begin with the honest admission of your own fallibility.

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Like yourself? Because air forces base their training on things that they know will work.

No, like the people who believe the 4 Raptors against 32 F-15s training scenario victory.

 

I've read this quite a while ago, and you're right. You need to go back to reading class, because you missed the train of analysis in context.

Care to be more specific. The stats are there is black and white telling you that you're wrong. Table 4 on page 9 is very specific.

 

http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

 

No, they really don't. Some of them do. By far not most of them, and those that do look all around are far more limited in range than IRSTs.

Rubbish.

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I believe you mean pulsars. Quasars are extremely luminous galactic nuclei powered by supermassive black holes; they do not emit regularly-timed signals. Pulsars, however, are tiny superdense stars that emit extremely precisely timed radio pulses at a frequency typically between ~1 Hz and ~1 kHz (pulses emitted as they spin).

 

The idea of using these instead of GPS satellites is ingenious... you can't blow them up, at least (unless Obama finally gives in and agrees to build the Death Star).

 

 

Nah, I mean Quasars. Pulsars are good for short distances but they're small. The system with Quasars, is similar in a way to the measurements made from VLBI (very long base interferometer).

And you wouldn't be able to blow a Quasar up. They consume space matter at the rate of 100 suns a year so, a pesky laser beam would only serve as a wafer thin mint ^^

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Back at work

 

HD

Jx2jBRJl.jpg

Marine Col. Arthur Tomassetti, the 33rd Fighter Wing vice commander, walks away from his F-35B Lightning II after a sortie March 2. F-35 A and B operations began again March 2 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., after a two-week cautionary suspension grounded the aircraft. An engine blade crack discovered at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. Feb. 19 caused the recent suspension.(U.S. Air Force photo/Maj. Karen Roganov)

 

HD

jvUUdu7l.jpg

F-35 A and B operations began again March 2 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., after a two-week cautionary suspension grounded the aircraft. An engine blade crack discovered at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. Feb. 19 caused the recent suspension.(U.S. Air Force photo/Maj. Karen Roganov)
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Nah, I mean Quasars. Pulsars are good for short distances but they're small. The system with Quasars, is similar in a way to the measurements made from VLBI (very long base interferometer).

And you wouldn't be able to blow a Quasar up. They consume space matter at the rate of 100 suns a year so, a pesky laser beam would only serve as a wafer thin mint ^^

 

Quasars do not vary significantly in brightness, except for some that are variable on time scales approaching weeks and months. GPS works by comparing the relative arrival times of several pulsed signals. Can you explain how it is possible to create a GPS system with signals that do not pulse then? It seems to me, the best you could do is create an INS with Quasars, similar to stellar INS that the SR-71 used.

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Ok Maior, I think this answers the confusion. I spent 2 minutes and googled it:

 

It is pulsars that they are contemplating the creation of a GPS network out of (all the discussion I found though, was for getting the exact positions of spacecraft):

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnfarrell/2012/04/02/pulsars-could-support-an-interstellar-gps/

 

However, Quasars are being considered as a potential method to get the orientation of GPS satellites:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2009/icrf2.html

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The following link may provide a clue as to how quasars work with the current GPS system.

 

http://www.space.com/7480-deep-space-objects-guide-earths-gps-system.html

 

to provide accurate position readings, the GPS systemicon1.png itself has to have a point of reference.

 

 

"For GPS to work, the orbital position, or ephemeris, of the satellites has to be known very precisely," said Chopo Ma of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "In order to know where the satellites are, you have to know the orientation of the Earth very precisely."

 

 

This can be a tricky prospect because from our perspective on Earth, "everything is always moving," Ma said. For example, Earth wobbles as it rotates due to the gravitational pull from the moon and the sun. And even seemingly minor movements, such as shift in air and ocean currents and motions in the Earth's molten core, all influence the orientation of the planet.

 

 

To get a stable reference point, GPS systemsicon1.png have to turn to the denizens of space.

 

 

Quasar collection

 

Stars might seem like the obvious signposts to use, since their positions seem so steady to us here on Earth. But they won't work for GPS "because they are moving too," Ma explained. The sun, for example, is circling the center of our Milky Way galaxy, taking our solar system along with it.

 

What are needed for the job are objects so remote that any motion they have is undetectable from Earth. They also need to be bright enough to be seen over the vast distance of space.

 

Quasars, which burn brighter than a billion suns, turn out to be the perfect candidates.

 

 

Quasars are thought to be powered by giant black holes feeding on nearby gas. Gas trapped in the black hole's powerful gravity is compressed and heated to millions of degrees, giving off intense light and/or radio energy.

 

Most quasarslurk in the outer reaches of the universe, over a billion light years away and so are distant enough to appear stationary from Earth's perspective.

 

 

A collection of remote quasars, whose positions in the sky are precisely known, forms a map of celestial landmarks in which to orient the Earth. The first such map, called the International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF), was completed in 1995. It was made over the course of four years and based on the analysis of the positions of about 600 objects.

 

Ma recently led a three-year effort to update this map and improve its precision.

 

 

New and improved

 

Called the ICRF2, this new map uses observations of about 3,000 quasars with the Very Long Baseline Interferometer (VLBI).

 

The VLBI is a special network of radio telescopes from all over the world that together have the resolving power of a telescope thousands of miles in diameter. (Though quasars burn intensely brightly, their enormous distance makes them too faint to locate accurately with a conventional optical telescope.)

 

 

The new quasar observations were able to reduce the uncertainties in the quasar positions to angles as small as 40 microarcseconds ? about the thickness of a 0.7-millimeter mechanical pencil lead in Los Angeles as viewed from Washington, D.C. This uncertainty is five times better than the original ICRF.

 

 

The observations from the VLBI network must be cleaned of noise from changes in atmospheric pressure, humidity and changes in the structure of the quasars themselves.

 

 

The IAU officially recognized the ICRF2 in August.

 

This quasar map not only helps to guide navigationicon1.png on Earth, but is also used to help navigate spacecraft on interplanetary missions. Astronomers also use them to guide telescopes and trace the motion of stars and other celestial objects to look for clues to their origin and evolution.

 

The next update to the ICRF might be done from space, with the planned European Space Agency satellite Gaia that will observe about half a million quasars. That mission, slated for launch in 2012, will use quasars that are too dim in the radio part of the spectrum to be seen by the VLBI network.

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You are right of course speed. Sorry for the confusion. It's been a couple of years I've worked with Astronomy and it was a recollection of a conversation I had with one of the project managers (name removed). Your mentioning of spacecraft jogged my memory as it was one of the things he mentioned. It actually devolved into an argument since when he heard I changed my field of study to Surveying engineering he sneered and said earth sciences were unimportant since the earth is "there". What was important was space sciences since that's the future. I replied "Well, I'm more concerned in learning to survive with what we've got than to rely on fictional spacecraft that, precise as they may be in their positioning, will be pretty useless for years to come. "

Ahhh... Good old times. Yes, I have no shame and I was clueless on who he was (my application on the project was still being reviewed though). Oddly enough, my application to the project got rejected :D

 

Still, now I'm free to focus on trying to start an UAV project. So, Win for me.

 

Ah, and I almost missed a bit. It's not changes in brightness their measuring. That is like, soooo 70s (joking). They measure frequency patterns and how those patterns repeat over time. Just like GPS.

 

EDIT: Ah, the VLBI is indeed used to provide measurements to the ITRF. VLBI stations are the most precise points on Earth in that we know where they are with huge precision. Just like sticking a wooden sign saying "You're exactly here!" with an arrow pointing down is one of the most precise measurements you can make. When me and some friends went to the desert, we wanted to leave those signs across in case anyone was lost. The irony of it would allow them to die of thirst with a smile on their faces.

 

 

Invader, is the question mark on the microarcseconds a doubt? Or was it on the text?


Edited by Maior
removed name of involved party since I shouldn't have posted it in the first place.
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Nice. Finally we'll see how these assets actually work.

Some news. USAF's techies are scratching their heads on how to be able to update the F-22 to keep up with the F-35. So far, the F-35 is a better asset at harvesting and managing data including comms. The F-22 has been showing some incompatibilities issues with more advanced networks making it worse in the overall sensor fusion network. How's that for effective?

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The F-22 operates the way the USAF needs it to operate ... they tend to iron out real problems very fast.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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