The F-35 Thread

[maturin]

Why does F35 need to be as good in performance, turning ability, etc. as gen 4.5 fighters?

 

It has a much smaller RCS.

 

So look first-shoot-first capability against gen 4.5 fighters.

 

Also higher survivability against IADS.

Either way you slice it, it's a bitter pill to swallow when the most expensive weapon system in history is not only a watered-down variant but moving backwards compared to the competition in some respects.

[marcos]

F-35 AN/APG-81radar Tracking sub-orbital rockets.

 

AN/AAQ-37 EODAS tracks rocket launch from 800miles away.

 

EOTS imagery - very clear picture

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/f-35-lightning-ii-electro-optical-targeting-system-etos/mfc-f-35-eots-pc.pdf

Edited February 20, 2013 by marcos

[Invader ZIM]

Fresh from the newswire:

 

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/First_F_35_Production_Model_Takes_Flight_999.html

 

First F-35 Production Model Takes Flight

by Staff Writers

Fort Worth, TX (SPX) Feb 20, 2013

 

File image.

 

The first Lockheed Martin production model F-35C carrier variant, known as CF-6, flew its first sortie Thursday.

Upon delivery later this year, the jet will be assigned to US Navy Fighter Attack Squadron 101 (VFA-101) at Eglin AFB, Florida.

The unit will serve as the Fleet Replacement Squadron, training Navy F-35C pilots and maintainers.

While CF-6 will be the first carrier variant jet assigned to Eglin, it will join a fleet of nine F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) jets and 13 F-35B short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) jets already on station.

 

[marcos]

[FanBoy2006.01]

Either way you slice it, it's a bitter pill to swallow when the most expensive weapon system in history is not only a watered-down variant but moving backwards compared to the competition in some respects.

 

Actually it was widely reported that when designing stealth aircraft, certain concessions will have to be made. Specifically, in regard to what can be done with aerodynamics.

 

Things that will affect maneuverability and top speed.

 

And now it is stated in the media as some kind of big shocker that the Super Hornet is a better dogfighter than a F35!

 

Give me a break.

 

I will tell you what shocked me. That the F22 is great in a dogfight and can out-accelerate everything else!

 

Do you expect a sniper to go toe-to-toe with a rifleman? No.

But I expect a sniper to use superior camouflage and accuracy to be more lethal than a rifleman.

[GGTharos]

But that's really not the case. Depending on the version of the -35, too - generally the -35 will have higher TWR than the superbug, while having a similar STR and AoA capability, so the hornet ends up being single-inferior in the TWR arena.

 

And now it is stated in the media as some kind of big shocker that the Super Hornet is a better dogfighter than a F35!

[Invader ZIM]

I think some are missing the big picture on how much a force multipler the F-35's can be, check out those recent videos posted by marcos.

 

These F-35's are basically going to be automatically tracking, classifying and pinpointing anything of relevance to a much larger network of warfighting systems each with their own datalinks and information sharing capability both in space, in the air, and on the ground, that's amazing firepower in knowledge for every one of these F-35's, F-22's and other datalinked systems that's flying in the battlespace. They aren't fighters, their strike aircraft with amazing potential to destoy advanced enemy command and control networks.

 

Imagine in that one video it's seeing a SAM launch, now everyone on the network has immediately pinpointed its location, planes are going defensive and are out of range, but an MLRS system on the ground now has the data to do a counterbattery strike on the sam system. It's amazing potential when you can see where all enemy and friendly forces are and can maneuver your forces to keep out of sight of the enemy while being able to hit him precisely where it's going to hurt. The enemy is basically giving himself away every time one of his tanks fires, his sam's fire, he turn on his radars, or fires artillery. It has amazing implications these systems.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Invader ZIM

[FanBoy2006.01]

But that's really not the case. Depending on the version of the -35, too - generally the -35 will have higher TWR than the superbug, while having a similar STR and AoA capability, so the hornet ends up being single-inferior in the TWR arena.

 

Even more good news for F35.

 

I really have to question the agenda of the media for badmouthing both the F22 and the F35. I watched a news report a while back on youtube that totally trashed the F22 (Called it the wicked witch of the east.). Then I read as statement released by Lockheed that debunked all their claims.

 

Some time ago there was a post about claims made by the Rand Corporation about the F35 being "double inferior" to latest Flanker variants. This thread also contained a statement by the Rand Corporation itself that they never made these claims. Um, maybe it was this thread?

 

 

 

@Invader Zim

 

Yes, that is very good points you brought up. It is expensive; but there are allot in that package.

Edited February 20, 2013 by FanBoy2006.01

[Invader ZIM]

To answer your question Fanboy, I think it comes down to disinterest. People who work in the media have to cover a story, most don't care about aircraft, let alone care about what model of aircraft they are covering. They see how much a program costs and sensationalize it, making the public think it's wasted tax dollars without looking further in detail about all the different technologies being developed for it, or the amount of different companies involved, and jobs such a program creates.

 

You and other's here have a general interest in all things military, and aircraft in particular where you look deeper into the details and put together the pieces of the puzzle to realize that these systems aren't always the waste of money they are implied to be by the rather uninformed media/John Q. Public or Joe Six-Pack

Edited February 20, 2013 by Invader ZIM

[GGTharos]

It may well be double-inferior - the flanker was built to compete with the eagle, and as such as pretty high TWR and turning ability. It's an agile aircraft.

 

And it might matter in a guns fight where the F-35 didn't arrive with advantage. Could this happen? It sure could, but the entire point and idea behind the F-35 (and air to air combat in general) is he who sees first, shoots first, and he who shoots first, wins.

 

This is the design philosophy that has us seeing fighters being build with bigger/better/more powerful sensors, better missiles, and finally stealth.

 

And as Invader Zim pointed out (and finally, someone really gets it) sitting out there 'double inferior' to some flanker variant isn't going to be that huge of an issue in the majority of cases.

 

Unless Rand's scenario comes true, and China decides to launch everything at Taiwan - but that would a very silly scenario. China isn't interested in screwing themselves over Taiwan.

 

Some time ago there was a post about claims made by the Rand Corporation about the F35 being "double inferior" to latest Flanker variants.

[Mandrake5]

 

(and finally, someone really gets it)....

 

 

Really? Thank christ for that! :worthy:

 

And there was me all confused believing some utter nonsense like 5th gen sensors and datalinks will revolutionise information sharing and target prosecution on the battlefield! Guess i had my head jammed up my.....oh wait.

 

Seriously, anyone with any awareness of 5th gen knows all this whining and attempted scandalising of F35 & F22 is horsesh*t.

[Invader ZIM]

It's kind of you to say that GGtharos, but as Mandrake pointed out, there's a few of us who do understand the implications of the technology, not just for the F-35 either. I would rather not say where I worked but I can honestly say I worked in the U.S. defense industry for years and had my hands on some of these programs mentioned on the forums, so I have an unfair advantage on seeing how the systems integrate and work with a battlefield network. But even trying to explain using public sources on how some of this technology changes the battlefield to my mother or other family members, and friends can be daunting, most people just don't care or aren't interested to know how it all works when it comes to battlefield technology. It certainly takes a certain type of individual that wants to look deeper into how all this works.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Invader ZIM

[Exorcet]

Seriously, anyone with any awareness of 5th gen knows all this whining and attempted scandalising of F35 & F22 is horsesh*t.

The F-35 is shaping up to be a good plane, but the program itself has a few issues. They're overblown a lot too, but the F-35 isn't free from criticism. So I wouldn't say all the negatives on it are garbage.

[Maior]

well, all the criticism on performance, is rubbish. All the criticism on the whole point of developing these weapon systems, is the one to be had imho. Should they be built, this F-35 will be top notch. However, I still would like to see a comparison between a superbug or a viper with all the F-35 tech retrofitted and see the difference in cost and performance.

[WynnTTr]

well, all the criticism on performance, is rubbish. All the criticism on the whole point of developing these weapon systems, is the one to be had imho. Should they be built, this F-35 will be top notch. However, I still would like to see a comparison between a superbug or a viper with all the F-35 tech retrofitted and see the difference in cost and performance.

Basically this for me.

 

Sure it'll be a nice aircraft to fly and fight but at what cost?

 

And to those shrugging off it's inferior agility versus older aircraft - you're heaping a whole lot of reliance on your tech. Technology fails and it'd be nice to know that you could mix it up with a Flanker, or F-18 or F-16 and still have an advantage (given equal pilot skill). Closing one eye to a problem doesn't make it go away. "Yeah well we'll shoot you before you see me" "well what about when you're jumped by the enemy managed to get within furball range?" "Um..." No tech is foolproof.

 

I'm saying for its cost, delays and insight into existing tech and insight with the F-22 (which works stunning well) I'd be expecting an aircraft that's far superior to any 4.5 in every regard.. not just one or two aspects that they'd rely on.

 

Welp.. bring it on I can only say. Roll it out so that real world tests can be done against retrofitted existing 4, 4.5 aircraft. Let's see if it's worth three times more. Who knows it might blow them all out of the water but the critics can't be all wrong and the backers can't be all right.

[Rammit]

Another thing the media can hold against the -35 is the price, seeing as Lockheed originally offered it as a low price fighter, and then it has around a $130m price tag. The capabilities are phenomenal, incredibly powerful sensor equipment, engines, stealth capabilities, at the price of performance, and as the -35 program is under scrutiny, all that most of the media will see is 'expensive, over-budget aircraft that can't hold it's own against the aircraft it's designed to replace', not too good unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, I love this aircraft but it is a rocky road leading to full operational squadrons of F-35s, and to see if the MoD will buy the -35 for British forces or will go for a cheaper alternative

[GGTharos]

"well what about when you're jumped by the enemy managed to get within furball range?" "Um..." No tech is foolproof.

 

It's not 'Um' it's 'you and what magic?' followed by 'DAS and HOBS missiles'.

[mikoyan]

Imagine lossing a few on accidents! things like bird strikes, engine failure, pilot mistakes wow! imagine if you were on real war having to replace your aircrafts! How much is going to be the next generation fighter by Lockmart? 350 a pop?

[GGTharos]

Oh no! How terrible! You might lose some to stuff that's known to happen!

 

Imagine if you lose a war instead?

 

Imagine lossing a few on accidents! things like bird strikes, engine failure, pilot mistakes wow! imagine if you were on real war having to replace your aircrafts! How much is going to be the next generation fighter by Lockmart? 350 a pop?

[Mandrake5]

Imagine lossing a few on accidents! things like bird strikes, engine failure, pilot mistakes wow! imagine if you were on real war having to replace your aircrafts! How much is going to be the next generation fighter by Lockmart? 350 a pop?

 

Losing $1 is a disaster if you only have $5. But no problem if you have $5000 ;)

[Invader ZIM]

Well, let's see, the U.S. is planning on having over 2,400 F-35's, we have 180+ F-22's with another 179+ Golden Eagles slated. I think we can afford a few accidents and losses during wartime.

 

Likewise, I wonder how hard it would hit if those guys at Sukhoi if they lost a T-50 or two in testing and evaluation, let alone a large scale war.

[BRooDJeRo]

Is the high number to try and keep up with china?

 

Lol, ever imagined all nation having the need to fly them all at once... would it be possible?

[GGTharos]

The high number is to maintain their ability to project force. There won't be 2400 active F-35's at all times anyway, as this number probably includes replacements over the aircraft's service life.

[BRooDJeRo]

Yeah, i know what you mean. Modern day border security is pretty much the musea, airshows and parades to keep things tidy.

The fact the number exists is enough, but usualy end up as spare parts or the Nevada junkyard.

 

OMG...he said Nevada...

 

But just the hypothesus...with all the carriers active, all military airfields and personel and tankers etc. would it at least be possible to field half that number in F35's (stay on topic), let's say 1250 combatready in the air? It might even be needed where we need to combine army's of the world to protect the planet against a hostile alien invasionforce making the final touchdown and they want humans alive like breeding cattle for consumption or slavery. I know it's very far fetched and as far as we know it is most likely not going to happen, still there's an existing chance and awareness that it might happen. So again, would it be possible?

Edited February 21, 2013 by BRooDJeRo

[Maior]

Yeah, i know what you mean. Modern day border security is pretty much the musea, airshows and parades to keep things tidy.

The fact the number exists is enough, but usualy end up as spare parts or the Nevada junkyard.

 

OMG...he said Nevada...

 

But just the hypothesus...with all the carriers active, all military airfields and personel and tankers etc. would it at least be possible to field half that number in F35's (stay on topic), let's say 1250 combatready in the air? It might even be needed where we need to combine army's of the world to protect the planet against a hostile alien invasionforce making the final touchdown and they want humans alive like breeding cattle for consumption or slavery. I know it's very far fetched and as far as we know it is most likely not going to happen, still there's an existing chance and awareness that it might happen. So again, would it be possible?

 

Dude, if aliens that are capable of mass interstellar travel come here, having 1250 F-35s in the air will be pretty useless. This is what you get by watching war of the worlds while high. trust me, been there, done that (just don't have the T-shirt).