Keeping Them Flying

[Mike Force Team]

As part of the ED platform, can the programmers add options/edits to allow us to perform maintenance on the jets?  For example, there is a timer that tracks the wear & tear on the jets.  When they reach a recommended interval, then they undergo maintenance.  The ED platform creates a program that shows aircrew performing maintenance, which reflects they are maintaining the plane.  Additionally, be able to control maintenance on certain parts like the jet's engine(s), the ejection seat, the plane's tires, and more.  As part of refueling, add the option to do "hot fueling."  It is the processing of refueling a jet with at least one engine running.  This reduces the amount of time the plane spends on the ground and allows it to get back in the air more quickly. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Mike Force Team

[SharpeXB]

It’s Digital Combat Simulator… not Plane Repair Simulator.

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s Digital Combat Simulator…

...and plane repairs is a hugely critical part of that. So you fully approve of this idea, presumably.

There's a reason why a basic framework for what the OP is asking for is already in the game, after all, but we can equally presumably add that to the list of DCS-related things you are wilfully ignorant of.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Tippis

[sirrah]

33 minutes ago, Mike Force Team said:

As part of the ED platform, can the programmers add options/edits to allow us to perform maintenance on the jets?  For example, there is a timer that tracks the wear & tear on the jets.  When they reach a recommended interval, then they undergo maintenance.  The ED platform creates a program that shows aircrew performing maintenance, which reflects they are maintaining the plane.  Additionally, be able to control maintenance on certain parts like the jet's engine(s), the ejection seat, the plane's tires, and more.  As part of refueling, add the option to do "hot fueling."  It is the processing of refueling a jet with at least one engine running.  This reduces the amount of time the plane spends on the ground and allows it to get back in the air more quickly. 

 

As a former F-16 mechanic, I'm sure that trying to implement "virtual" aircraft maintenance will only result in disappointment.

You can't simulate the cramp you get from sticking your arm in one of the fuselage tank compartments, trying to remove finger fitting mounting bolt sealant, for three days in a row. Or the sheer "joy" you'll have from removing a few hundred screws from the LEF seals, to perform a 50hrs inspection...

(Sure, there were nice parts of this job too )

But seriously, what's the fun in replacing an engine with a mouse click??

 

As for hot pit refueling: You can already do this. Just open the radio menu and have the ground crew refill your aircraft 

[Tank50us]

8 hours ago, sirrah said:

As for hot pit refueling: You can already do this. Just open the radio menu and have the ground crew refill your aircraft 

Yeah, it's called 'hot refueling', as I'm sure you already know. It's something that's possible even in the civilian world, but rarely ever practiced in anything other than a tail-mounted plane since engines and ground crew simply don't mix.... although the engine will certainly try if someone stands too close....

In military aircraft there are procedures for it, and they are practiced now and then at land bases since combat will make it where the plane has to be back in the air again in a hurry (as seen in the '91 Gulf War where A-10s would land and rearm/refuel hot). That being said, again, irl, it's a very, VERY dangerous thing to do, and has procedures that must be followed to the letter to be done safely. Funnily enough, the danger is so real, my unit actually places these decals:

on our liveries (the one above is just for the Viper, we have the other fixed wing aircraft fitted as well with their own.... even the A-10.... because OSHA....)

[Northstar98]

As a general concept? Yes, but personally I'm not that interested in interacting with the maintenance myself, and it sounds like that would be a massive undertaking. I'd rather do something like what that C:MO does (and maybe the other F-16 sim too?).

Here's how it would work:

• You have some 'host entity' (be it an airbase or an aircraft carrier) with a certain quantity of xxxx aircraft type assigned to it (there may be multiple types in different quantities).
• Each individual aircraft can occupy one of 2 'pools' that are mutually exclusive: 'available and 'unavilable'.
• If a certain aircraft is available it can be immediately occupied by the player (or AI).
• If a certain aircraft is unavailable, the player (or AI) is unable to occupy it.
• The unavailable pool should be subdivided into different states; for example, an aircraft might be unavailable because it's down for maintenance or is currently airborne and on a mission.
• If an aircraft returns from a mission needing maintenance/repair, it gets sent into the unavailable pool, and it stays there for a certain period of time, which should preferably be something within what would be expected IRL. Personally, there should be a user set multiplier, allowing the mission editor to set whether a repair takes a longer or shorter amount of time.
• If you wanted to go further, you could have a list of available components/parts, even if it was more generalised and only accounted for major subsystems or categories of subsystems. Though this also relates to logistics more generally, which the current system leaves a fair bit to be desired IMO, and really is deserving of its own thread.
• If an aircraft is lost or written off, it gets removed from the host entity; if it has 24 F-16s, and 1 is lost/written off, it now has 23, with each being available or unavailable. It should be possible to resupply the host entity, allowing you to replace lost aircraft.
• It should also be possible to have an ulimited number of certain aircraft assigned to the host entity, in which case this system doesn't apply and there's always an aircraft available.

With this system, the current 3 minute group crew repair is redundant (as well as being unrealistic) and can be removed. Players landing damaged aircraft can simply occupy another one, so long as one is available.

 

One thing that would be cool to see is for all aircraft to be visible in game and that aircraft that are down for maintenance have randomised access panels opened, with maybe some static maintenance objects and units spawned around it. Unfortunately though, only the A-10s, current F-15s and in the future, the Ka-50 BS3 too, have any kind of animated maintenance panels with internal components visible.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Northstar98

[Raven434th]

ED has enough trouble keeping their code in check as it is ...not a good idea to add to it...maybe when the day comes when we're bug /issue free ,then yeah go for it but not until then.

[FlankerKiller]

Honestly at this point in DCS I don't think it's really worth the effort it would take. But alot of the ground work is already there. Engine wear is moddled. Basic repair and rearm is a thing. Airframe damage from over G is modeled. So getting some more life on the ramp would be nice. Maybe ED could start by giving us virtual marshallers. To guide us off of, and back onto our spots. It would be really really sweet to have to have a generator available to apply external power. And since pushing that thing in and hooking it up is done the exact same way every time it could easily be animated. It would definitely look cool to see the Hobart being pushed away on start up. Maybe even have a few crew "standard around and wrenching" while a jet is being rearmed would look awesome. Little touches really add to immersion. 

Now if the dynamic campaign ever becomes a reality, that might make this request something worth looking into. As I said wear and tear is already modeled in the game. And if the dynamic campaign approaches combat in a way that the aircraft that are in the environment persist in the environment, then jets having some kind maintenance performed while they're on the ground would definitely be a necessary thing. It could be simple as the as in the jet regenerates the longer it sits at the airport. Or it could be more realistic and complicated. Realistically there are only so many maintenance personnel available at any given time. So jets would "regenerate" in burst as the maintenance available at that airport "gets to them. It would be fun and add immersion to see some guys standing around and wrenching on the birds on the ramp. It would also be fun to have your aircrafts come back capability degraded over time as it would in an actual conflict. So yeah I think this is a future sort of request. But maybe one ED should look at. 

[Fangs Out]

While I don't think that DCS should worry about Maintenance as a full fidelity type experience like the Viper, i believe there should be some portions like CMO. Although, I'd buy a cold war aircraft maintenance sim.

[Mike Force Team]

If ED builds the airplane maintenance mod, then people are likely to buy it.

[Tank50us]

1 hour ago, Mike Force Team said:

If ED builds the airplane maintenance mod, then people are likely to buy it.

nah. I HIGHLY doubt many people would buy it. Certainly not enough to justify a full module.

[Dragon1-1]

Dynamic campaign will have a supply system of some sort, so presumably failure management could be made a part of that. Unlikely on the first release, but later on, wear could be simulated, and failures happen if you ride your planes too hard for too long.

[Mike Force Team]

And here some speculation.  There is a chance, albeit a remote chance, that maybe ED might offer a dynamic campaign feature/option at the end of January 2022.  I know this is the approximate time when the Apache is supposed to be available to everyone.

[Tippis]

50 minutes ago, Mike Force Team said:

And here some speculation.  There is a chance, albeit a remote chance, that maybe ED might offer a dynamic campaign feature/option at the end of January 2022.  I know this is the approximate time when the Apache is supposed to be available to everyone.

If they were anywhere near that close to even rolling out the tiniest sliver of a feature, they'd be shouting it from the rooftops and doing 24/7 hype video segments. So no. That's not really “speculation” so much as “wishful thinking in direct opposition to everything known and every trend and pattern ever.”

Edited January 14, 2022 by Tippis

[Northstar98]

16 hours ago, Tippis said:

If they were anywhere near that close to even rolling out the tiniest sliver of a feature, they'd be shouting it from the rooftops and doing 24/7 hype video segments. So no. That's not really “speculation” so much as “wishful thinking in direct opposition to everything known and every trend and pattern ever.”

Besides, a dynamic campaign is absolutely contingent on having improved AI (including ATC), and we're only seeing tiny slivers of that, let alone a dynamic campaign.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Northstar98

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

12 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

And here some speculation.  There is a chance, albeit a remote chance, that maybe ED might offer a dynamic campaign feature/option at the end of January 2022.  I know this is the approximate time when the Apache is supposed to be available to everyone.

I slipped on some ice and contacted pelvic bone against a frozen ridge in the road. I'm in total agony and I really want whatever you're smoking right about now.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

I slipped on some ice and contacted pelvic bone against a frozen ridge in the road. I'm in total agony and I really want whatever you're smoking right about now.

Well, if you're gonna smoke your painkillers, the options are few. You're better off shooting up.

[mkellytx]

The inclusion of maintenance and logistics would be great, but as others mentioned dynamic campaign is a prerequisite for it to be worth while.  FWIW, before I joined the dark side as aircrew I was a maintenance officer on Bones.  Typically back at home station for a 12 PAA squadron you had 13 aircraft and flew a four turn two/three, day in and day out, during a 16 hour flying day with 4-6 hour missions with 1-2 spares.  The jets were happy doing that, fly more lines a day or longer sorties and things start to break more often and eventually availability really starts to suffer.  It'd be great to see that Goldilocks behavior modeled where in a campaign you have to keep things "just right" or have a bunch of non mission capable metal on the ramp.