CM-802AKG: DIR & COO Modes Still Require MITL / Questions

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I'm currently doing a refresher in the JF-17 after having been away from it for a while. I have some questions on the CM-802AKG missile:

a) If I recall, the CM-802AKG missile REQUIRES MITL steering at terminal phase for ALL 3 modes (DIR, COO, MAN) to hit its target. In MAN mode, it's understood MITL steering is required. But in DIR (SPI) and COO (PP) modes, it's not always apparent that MITL steering is ALSO REQUIRED despite having an SPI or PP (which act more like "waypoints" for this missile). Is this correct? I could run some tests but thought I'd check with the forum first.

b) What's with the "5NM" range indicator next to the RP indicator (top left DLPOD display) whenever the last RP is reached? For example, "3/3 2NM" means 2NM remaining to RP3. But once RP3 is reached, it stays fixed at "3/3 5NM". It's always "5NM" regardless of number of RPs or distance from last RP to target. 

Thanks! 

Edited December 4, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[609_Relentov]

From my experience, if you use DIR mode, you don't need MITL steering in the terminal phase, especially if you used the WMD7 pod to lock onto a target (generally < 20 nm), as it's usually pretty accurate without any MITL steering.  For COO and MAN I've always used it.  With COO, even with an accurate PP/target attack point, I can't recall if you provide altitude information, so without that, accuracy may not be as precise as you need. (EDIT - just checked, and when you add a waypoint you do provide altitude, so MITL steering may not be needed with COO, again, just depends on how accurate the waypoint is).

Regarding the 5NM after you reach the last RP, I'm not sure...

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by 609_Relentov

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Just did some testing. Yep, in DIR and COO modes, the missile just flies over the SPI and PP targets. You must do MITL final steering to the target. Kind of strange for an SPI. For PPs, I noticed there is no option for elevation setting in ME. In flight using the UFCP DST page, I tried setting ALT for the PPs to 0 but the missile still flies over the PPs. MAN mode goes without saying. So the CM-802AKG is a MITL weapon in all 3 modes.   

Edited December 4, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[609_Relentov]

Hmm, I'll have to test again, as I know I was able to fire using DIR after locking with the WMD7 and it hit the locked target without any MITL steering.  This was from fairly close though, less than 10 nm (and it was before the latest update).

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

If we look at the SLAM-ER or Walleye (Wags' Hornet tutorials), they both have the fire-and-forget option of not requiring the use of the datalink pod and MITL steering, and will still hit their targets (PP/TOO for SLAM-ER, locked target for Walleye). If you fly Western aircraft like the F18/F16, you are used to the idea that the weapon will hit a locked target or target coordinates. But not so with the CM-802AKG in DCS. It sees a locked target (DIR) or pre-planned coordinates (COO) as just 'waypoints'. It would be unusual if Deka's CM-802AKG in DIR and COO modes are true to real life.

Anyway, I found this old thread discussing this confusion. Manuals and choice of words used to describe the first two modes ("DIR" and "COO") can be misleading. 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[609_Relentov]

Actually, I got around to trying the C-802AKG in DIR mode with the WMD7 for the first time after the latest patch, and at least for me, something's wrong with the missile.  I lock onto a target (e.g. an SA-9) with the WMD7 pod at around 20nm, launch a missile, and shortly after launch it pulls up and starts looping over and over again.  This is even before I attempt to switch to the datalink pod (which when I do, there is no signal).

EDIT - never mind, operator error... I forgot with this test mission I didn't have the datalink pod, just the WMD7.  After loading the datalink pod, I locked a target with the WMD7 and launched, and it flew straight towards the target this time (  )...  However, after switching to the datalink pod feed, I noticed the missile was headed in the general direction of the locked target, but not right at it, so you're right, even in DIR mode, you need MITL commands to correct the missiles path.  Interesting, I'm fairly certain that before I was able to lock a target with the WMD7 (within 20 nm) and the missile was able to hit it without any added steering commands, but not now it seems.

Edited December 4, 2021 by 609_Relentov

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Yeah, it's the same with COO. Maybe it's a bug or misrepresentation of the missile. I couldn't find real world info on it. Or perhaps "DIR" and "COO" are inaccurate translations from Mandarin to English, that the Chinese manufacturer's meant something else. There isn't a Western equivalent to a locked target SPI or PP coords where the missile just flies over it. The other question is why the UFCP DST page COO/PP Alt setting (I tried zero) made no difference, and why the ME does not permit you to enter elevation for the PPs. Hopefully it's WIP.   

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[fergrim]

I've been reviewing the documentation as much as possible and I think the only misunderstanding that may have developed is that the C-802AKG -requires- MITL in order to successfully hit its target.  It's not an option, but a necessity.

And as I think about it, I remember that I couldn't use the 802-AKG at all without a data link pod, which is used for MITL exclusively.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but it seems to me right now that the missile is working as intended.

Not to mention, I don't remember anyone from ED or deka saying that there were any problems with this missile, right?

My oldest version of Chuck's guide is worded in a way that implies this as well.

Edit:

I also remember a mission for the JF-17 which was meant to highlight usage of the 802-akg.  The mission was to destroy a convoy traveling along a highway.  The 802-AKG was meant to be used due to its ability to fly along said highway controlled by MITL, until spotting and destroying this convoy.

So that, to me, is further evidence that it always required MITL.

The JF-17 has several other options for stand off range ordinance that doesn't require any such thing that all work just fine, so it sort of makes sense.

Edited December 5, 2021 by fergrim

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Deka's current guide still says - "In DIR mode, missile fly to SPI directly. In COO mode missile will attack PP point (choose from No. 36-39)." This can create confusion. Chuck's latest guide is now clearer (just reread it) as it says "fly towards" the SPI/PP and mentions "the missile will enter MITL mode" 20km out. Seems I missed the update - "28/05/2021: CM-802AKG missile logic & procedures revised; Datalink pod is required for DIR, COO and MAN, which all require MITL guidance." (Though I can't seem to use the optional RP for DIR or COO modes as described in the guide.) Anyhow, looks like the CM-802AKG is more akin to the Israeli Delilah missile, not the SLAM-ER or Walleye.

[fergrim]

I was almost disappointed by this, but then I realized that we have like four or five options for long range attacks on ground that are even more automated.

 

And MITL isn't exactly a deal breaker either, right?  It's still an incredibly versatile, long ranged missile that by its nature can make really intelligent moves to avoid being shot down on its final approach.

And while I AM a fan of the module, I want to make clear that I'm not trying to be an apologist for it, so much as assuming others were confused in the same way I was.  First hearing it required mitl i thought it was a downgrade, until I dug into my memory and went over the old books

Edited December 11, 2021 by fergrim

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

When the CM802AKG first came out, I remember it was very difficult to steer, like it kept veering off. Seems a lot easier now, more ‘ground stabilised’.

[Fliegerkalle]

Does the 802AKG and the 802AK work properly now? Or are these still bugged ? 

[Ramsay]

1 hour ago, Fliegerkalle said:

Does the 802AKG and the 802AK work properly now?

AFAIK
• 802AK is working correctly when target size is set appropriately i.e. Large for the Neustrashimy.
• 802AKG is TV guided and switches to MITL/datalink  @ 20 km (10.8 NM)

It's not clear if the AKG's COO, DIR or MAN guidance has changed as I've always used MITL and never tried to fire it "blind".

A similar question was answered here: