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Cluster munition craters cause huge FPS drop (what is HMDEndFrame?)


Rosly
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Hi,

Can anyone can explain me what is "HMDEndFrame" in FPS statistic info "Right Ctrl + Pause x2"?

background:
I have simple mission on Caucasus map with ~30 ground units on which I train bomb runs.
I play on VR and I have stable 45fps+ on my 3700x + RTX 3090.
But when bomb the units and than I turn my head into "remains" than fps drops to 20fps!!
The HMDEndFrame is rising fom 0.1 to 30+

When I turn my head away from that specific place than fps goes back to 45 and HMDEndFrame is again 0.0 - 0.1

Is this because of smoke coming out of destroyed units?
Is really those 4 smoke plumes cause so much burden on 3090?

fps_drop.png

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Ok found the root cause.

FPS drops are not due to smoke plumes. HMDEndFrame is low when I'm isolating one in a frame (first screenshot - fps_drop2.jpg).

But the "bomb craters" is a total killer for my GTX 3090! HMDEndFrame rises to 43+ and FPS drops to 19 if I have one of such isolated in frame (second screenshot - fps_drop3.jpg). The bigger space the crater take on screen, the bigger the fps drop is. And if more craters are in frame the fps drop even more. So flying over area bombarded with cluster munition in killer for GPU.

Due to this cluster bombing is a total killer for VR experience.
Looks like unoptimized shader? (smoke plumes are 2D sprites which roll towards you in VR as old clouds, but craters does not look like a sprite to me).
 

 

fps_drop2.jpg

fps_drop3.jpg


Edited by Rosly
Adding more info to bug report
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  • Rosly changed the title to What is HMDEndFrame? Cluster munition craters cause huge FPS drop.
  • Rosly changed the title to Cluster munition craters cause huge FPS drop (what is HMDEndFrame?)
5 hours ago, Rosly said:

Looks like reported multiple times:

Is there a way to disable those craters?
This is silly that due to minor graphic effects so many players are loosing fun from this game!

It's not the crater graphic.  I deleted the crater textures and still happens.  I then removed the crater edm file altogether and there are no more craters but still FPS drop when looking at the site of impact.  You can test out and let us know.  Attached below will remove all craters from the game.

CraterTest.zip

Has to be some sort of leak in the code.  For now, I just deactivate all artillery and avoid using cluster bombs.


Edited by Taz1004
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31 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

It's not the crater graphic.  I deleted the crater textures and still happens.  I then removed the crater edm file altogether and there are no more craters but still FPS drop when looking at the site of impact.  You can test out and let us know.  Attached below will remove all craters from the game.

CraterTest.zip 2.13 kB · 3 downloads

Has to be some sort of leak in the code.  For now, I just deactivate all artillery and avoid using cluster bombs.

 

I find it hard to beleive Taz does not have an "ED Beta Testers" tag under his name........

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8 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Has to be some sort of leak in the code.  For now, I just deactivate all artillery and avoid using cluster bombs.

 

Sadly the problem happens with rockets and bombs too. A belly full from a Viggen will start dropping the fps as well, and if you do a few runs, ouf. Craters dont even have to be visible, you just need to face the area from quite far away even.

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28 minutes ago, Knock-Knock said:

Sadly the problem happens with rockets and bombs too. A belly full from a Viggen will start dropping the fps as well, and if you do a few runs, ouf. Craters dont even have to be visible, you just need to face the area from quite far away even.

It's not the crater graphic but it is related to crater creation.  MLRS in the game doesn't create crater (which should be another bug BTW) and they don't cause stutter.  And it's also related to number of craters.  When I test with just 5 artillery, stutter was very minimal.  But increased it to 15, it started to crawl.

Thinking it's related to warhead but weapons are off limits since 2.7


Edited by Taz1004
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when i watch the weapon view the pucks going off definitely lowers the FPS. however if i am at a distance and altitude the FPS stays constant. 

this is from wiki so take it for what its worth:

Quote

The CBU-97 consists of an SUU-66/B tactical munition dispenser that contains 10 BLU-108 submunitions. Each submunition contains four hockey-puck-shaped sensor-fused projectiles called Skeets. These detect target vehicles, such as tanks, armored personnel carriers, trucks and other support vehicles, and fire an explosively-formed penetrator downwards at them.

using that math CBU-97 dropped in a pair would generate 80 separate explosions just from themselves. that's a lot of polygons and we all want realism. it sucks but sort of expected

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15 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

when i watch the weapon view the pucks going off definitely lowers the FPS. however if i am at a distance and altitude the FPS stays constant. 

this is from wiki so take it for what its worth:

using that math CBU-97 dropped in a pair would generate 80 separate explosions just from themselves. that's a lot of polygons and we all want realism. it sucks but sort of expected

I think the issue here is that FPS drop is there even without all the polygons.

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14 hours ago, silverdevil said:

using that math CBU-97 dropped in a pair would generate 80 separate explosions just from themselves. that's a lot of polygons and we all want realism. it sucks but sort of expected

Like others said, that is not the problem discussed/reported here. The problem is looking at the area the CBU's went off minutes later(heck i arrived 20min later to the same area in a Hind after i dropped 6 CBU's from a F-16 Viper) and the FPS went from stable 40fps(VR Rift S) to 20fps and below! There was no explotion/smoke/craters visible from the distance but it killed the fps and performance went immediately up as soon as i was not looking at that area again and went immediately back down as soon as i was looking at the area again.

That is the problem and not a short drop in fps because the old DCS engine is not capable to render an performand particle effect.

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i misunderstood. i honestly do not see an issue but could just be either missing the drop or my system is able to handle it. there is even a mission i downloaded for A10 and two B52s drop 20 MK20s each and its a show but still no residual effects of damage to the ground or whatever. this could be another example of some users with the issue and some without.

and by the way this issue was reported in 2015 and resurrected

 


Edited by silverdevil

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3 hours ago, silverdevil said:

i misunderstood. i honestly do not see an issue but could just be either missing the drop or my system is able to handle it. there is even a mission i downloaded for A10 and two B52s drop 20 MK20s each and its a show but still no residual effects of damage to the ground or whatever. this could be another example of some users with the issue and some without.

and by the way this issue was reported in 2015 and resurrected

 

 

I only had the performance hit at the time they explode(not that extreme if i remember correct) in the past. I didn't had time for DCS for a couple months but found this issue after returning. So atleast for me it is a new problem, that the fps hit stayes after the explosion effect. I also noticed this online after a SU-33 dropped some cluster ammunition, looking at that area made DCS unplayable - you can divide them(figures down below) for VR.

I have created a very simple test mission. Just a Humvee waiting for a F-16 to drop 6 CBU-97 on caucasus map, no target unit, just "THE cross" 😉

My performance(2D) is 100+ fps before the F-16 drops the CBU's, fps drops to below 20 at explosion/dust/smoke and climbs back up to 35 fps after the effect ends. Panning around my fps climbs to 100+ fps everytime the former area of explosion is out of view and back down to ~35fps as long as the former area is in view.

Mission and track file attached, post will be edited with YT video after processing is finished.

It would be interesting to see your results. 

 

 

CBU_performance_mission.miz CBU_performance_track.trk


Edited by unknown

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache

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4 hours ago, silverdevil said:

i misunderstood. i honestly do not see an issue but could just be either missing the drop or my system is able to handle it. there is even a mission i downloaded for A10 and two B52s drop 20 MK20s each and its a show but still no residual effects of damage to the ground or whatever. this could be another example of some users with the issue and some without.

and by the way this issue was reported in 2015 and resurrected

 

 

 

The problem here is not the explosion effects nor smoke in time of impact.

The point is that the FPS are affected long after the bomb hit the ground. This is not due particle effects and as taz1004 pointed out, probably not even the crater itself. If you remove crater efects visuals the problem still remains.

So the bottom line is why we pay by FPS drop for something that is not affecting visuals? I would understand if that would be some dynamic effect that you have to constantly recalculate after explosion but I cannot find anything other than some resource leaking, effect animation loop. In any way this is obviously a BUG. And it is connected with visuals and turning your head away casue the problem to not affect FPS.

Your system spec's are quite impressive but mine is not much worse.

On my side 3700x + GTX 3090 +32GB and the influence of the BUG is severe (drop from 45 fps in VR (5760x2800) to 20 fps)


Edited by Rosly
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2 hours ago, Rosly said:

... and turning your head away casue the problem to not affect FPS.

that good awareness and not having tunnel vision on the target 🙂

2 hours ago, Rosly said:

Your system spec's are quite impressive but mine is not much worse.

On my side 3700x + GTX 3090 +32GB and the influence of the BUG is severe (drop from 45 fps in VR (5760x2800) to 20 fps)

thanks cost me a bunch of cash in march 2021. i do notice a big difference comparing our setups. i am a pancake user. i need a barf bag to use VR (i guess that's simulated too 😉 ) my res is not that large.

["height"] = 1440
["width"] = 3440

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5 hours ago, unknown said:

I only had the performance hit at the time they explode(not that extreme if i remember correct) in the past. I didn't had time for DCS for a couple months but found this issue after returning. So atleast for me it is a new problem, that the fps hit stayes after the explosion effect. I also noticed this online after a SU-33 dropped some cluster ammunition, looking at that area made DCS unplayable - you can divide them(figures down below) for VR.

I have created a very simple test mission. Just a Humvee waiting for a F-16 to drop 6 CBU-97 on caucasus map, no target unit, just "THE cross" 😉

My performance(2D) is 100+ fps before the F-16 drops the CBU's, fps drops to below 20 at explosion/dust/smoke and climbs back up to 35 fps after the effect ends. Panning around my fps climbs to 100+ fps everytime the former area of explosion is out of view and back down to ~35fps as long as the former area is in view.

Mission and track file attached, post will be edited with YT video after processing is finished.

It would be interesting to see your results. 

 

 

CBU_performance_mission.miz 8.88 kB · 2 downloads CBU_performance_track.trk 88.61 kB · 2 downloads

 

i will try it. though i cannot see what FPS you have since the video is blurry.

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Below video, I dropped two CBU-105's with no crater model.  Also showing resource usage graph.  Skip to 2 minute mark to see where FPS drop starts to happen.

You can see the GPU usage spikes when looking at the site of CBU impact.  Even when there's nothing and smoke all dissipated.  CPU also spikes somewhat but not as much as GPU.  And towards the end you can see there are no craters.  But still GPU spikes when looking towards and away from impact site.

 

Below is same video WITH crater.  Results are virtually identical.

 

And as I noted above, this doesn't happen with MLRS which doesn't create crater.  Obvious place to look at in my opinion is the code that creates the crater.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of performance complaints are caused by this issue.  Craters do not dissappear as far as I know.  And it will accumulate longer you play a mission.

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40 minutes ago, Mustang said:

I've found that reducing the dynamic2 parameter in graphics.lua to something alot lower helps with the FPS drops, not ideal but it's a stopgap.

Tried reducing from {300, 16000,0.5} to {1, 10,0.5} and still same result.  What value are you using?

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My theory is that the problem is somehow connected to F10 map. I only relatively recently noticed that craters appear there as well, and bringing up the map is notoriously laggy. Just an idea...

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9 minutes ago, impalor said:

My theory is that the problem is somehow connected to F10 map. I only relatively recently noticed that craters appear there as well, and bringing up the map is notoriously laggy. Just an idea...

Craters don't appear on my F10 map.  Is that an option?

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8 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Craters don't appear on my F10 map.  Is that an option?

Not sure. In some missions I saw them, must be an option in mission editor.

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