correct as-is Take Off assistance percentage bar has been removed from the 'Special' Options

[Yo-Yo]

1 hour ago, Basco1 said:

Thanks for the tip Yo-Yo I've got some time off today so I'll give this a go,appreciate you trying to sort this out for us,we'll get there I'm sure 

 

EDIT: Out of interest my take off headaches are when the aircraft is heavily loaded ie Mission ready,but I want it this way,there is no point to me learning how to take off without a full load of bombs and hardly any fuel in the tanks.

So with this in mind are your findings based on the aircraft being heavily loaded ? or it being lightly loaded.......taking off lightly loaded is no problem to me,I can do that easily without any assistance,just to be clear.

 

Rather heavily loaded, I successfully tried even +12 lb takeoffs from 1000 m airstrip, but most of hints work for any any load - the rules are generally the same. 

[Basco1]

Ok,I have hopefully followed your instructions precisely Yo-Yo,here are my screenshots to show where the trim pointer ends up if I trim to keep my Mosquito between 120 - 140 Mph,flaps at 10 %,gear down.

My aircraft was loaded with a default fuel load of 67% fuel and 4 x 500Ib.

To inhibit any parallax reading I shifted to the No2 seat so I could look directly at it,as you can see the pointer was set at 1.5 clicks/ticks after my trimming,so I then used this for my take offs.

Unfortunately this did not make a difference to my take offs,the tail still does'nt seem to be stabilized,so I am still fighting it as I track down the runway,the worst of the snaking seems to be the last third of the take off.So it's back to the drawing board for me,more training,more experimenting.....but I'm running out of ideas.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Basco1

[Yo-Yo]

And after all it is just 1 tick... the parallax is still there. But it has sense only if you want to compare to the pilot's notes.
The snaking seems very strange to me, because the plane is quite stable. But anyway, you have to apply the rudder not counter the veering angle but mainly against the angular velocity.
For example, the plane veers left, you apply right rudder, but you have to reverse the input to left as the nose is straight and the plane has angular velocity to right. If you reverse rudder as the nose is already right - it is the best conditions for PIO. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

8 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'd appreciate it if you brought it down a notch or two, I stated that we have discussed how this was not done the way it should have been, but it wasn't out of ill intent, it was that the people in control of this aspect of the Mossie felt it hurt more than it helped. Again, it should have been communicated better, and more discussion, but flying off the handle at this point isn't going to help, me and Yo-Yo are here communicating.  Your feedback is appreciated, and if it was indeed helping you and others, I am happy to take that back to the devs and push for it to be put back until a better system is in place.

This is an unfortunate aspect of Early Access, as things are tweaked and adjust controls can be changed without notice. I don't think it has anything to do with the Auto Assist though.

 

Control sensitivity seems to be an issue across the board right now, but this is EA, things like this can be expected, and are being looked at.

Nineline it doesnt affect me personally as on the warbirds i have this function off along with rudder correction, but i was wondering what the hell was going on and why people were struggling to get airborne with the mossie all of a sudden.

Im passionate about the module and in fairness i've been looking forward to this module more than any other and have been an advocate of people buying the module after the initial excellent release, so its frustrating to see the situation play out with no consultation with the community first.  I mean a post could have been done on these very forums for new players do they want this feature removed as its not working properly yet, leaving in until new solution working, or leave status quo etc.  Then action its results.  Especially until the FM has been finalized and the trim setting's for joystick assignments are refined to a realisitic level.

What you have now is a situation where people are clearly struggling to enjoy what is a great, gorgeous, beast of a module, albeit in EA.

Again i reference the poor commercial sense on this issue, hence the frustation.  We need as many people into warbirds with positives experiences so that they buy more modules and thus allow this area of DCS to expand.  It's also why i'm an advocate of people using stand alone and not steam (if you check recent posts re funding allowing more dev hours).  So not to have learning "stabilisers" is like trying to get a child to ride a bike for the first time.  Its a cliche but so true you dont get a second chance to make a first impression.  I also have seen as people get more into warbirds they will often start with this option on then cut it down to 75%, 50% and then 25% and eventually off as they get a feel and more experienced with the FM (and generally by this stage bought into the hardware required).

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Hawkeye_UK

[Basco1]

After spending a whole morning on this experimenting with different ways to take off in a controlled manner I give up....the Spitfire take off was easy compared to this,and yet guys made such a fuss about it when it first came out....that is nothing to this monster !

The snaking of this module as it tracks down the runway is beyond belief,so for the time being that's it for me with this...it's got to a stage where it's just not enjoyable....I like a challenge like the next man,but this is ridiculous.

It flies beautifully (once airborne!),it lands beautifully,and I have no problems whatsoever with anything else,but if I can't take off I'm not interested.....with all respect air starts are not for me.

For those that have 'genuinely' mastered this.....I take my hat off to you....you have my full respect 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Basco1

[grafspee]

@Basco1

This how i take off and land after learning this thing, before it was quite hard to learn.

Remember to set full right rudder trim before take off, helps a lot.

You just get used to it, same was for me when i switched from twist stick in to rudder pedals  It felt almost impossible

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by grafspee

[Basco1]

Yes,appreciated Graf but I can take off,fly and land the Spit,yes I went through the same pain as yourself I'm sure,but I've mastered that,with the assistance off,as I have all the other WW2 warbirds......but the Mosquito is a different beast altogether.

Question: Do you have the Mosquito ?

[bart]

1 hour ago, Basco1 said:

After spending a whole morning on this experimenting with different ways to take off in a controlled manner I give up....the Spitfire take off was easy compared to this,and yet guys made such a fuss about it when it first came out....that is nothing to this monster !

The snaking of this module as it tracks down the runway is beyond belief,so for the time being that's it for me with this...it's got to a stage where it's just not enjoyable....I like a challenge like the next man,but this is ridiculous.

It flies beautifully (once airborne!),it lands beautifully,and I have no problems whatsoever with anything else,but if I can't take off I'm not interested.....with all respect air starts are not for me.

Basco, don't give up on her!

Jump onto the Aerobatics Online server and sit in my nav seat. I'm definitely no expert but I would be happy to give you some pointers. Then swap and I'll jump into the nav and you have a go. Let me know when is good for you if you would like to give it a whirl. But don't give up on the Mossie. Once you get it she's the pick of the bunch!.

[NineLine]

Those of you missing Take-Off Assist, make sure you have auto-rudder on and see if that helps.

 

[HotTom]

Thank you, Yo-Yo. That may explain why it works better when I take off with a neutral stick. I will give that a try.

[Basco1]

Thanks very much for the offer Bart very much appreciated dear fellow 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Basco1

[HotTom]

15 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

I think, I nailed the problem. The tail comes up a bit early. The real Mosquito was known to have the same feature.  The tail does not get enough power to stabilize  and control. Try to gradually reduce nose-down trim, the plane requires not more than 1 tick (the right way to set correct value is to avoid parallax reading). Anyway,  you can set gear down, flaps down 10 during flight and ttim the plane at 120-140 mph,  then use this trim position for TO, wherever you see the pointer. 

Well, I'm getting there. Followed your advice. Trimmed for 120-140 mph with 10 degree of flaps down.

What I am finding is that the more nose down trim I use, the better, which sounds counterintuitive to me. Somewhere around 2.2 is helping. The "snaking" starts just before the tail rising and gets worse during the tail is rising. There is a definite shift in the forces (no Star Wars pun intended) involved and it requires some rudder dancing to keep it straight.

Best results are on the runways at Manston which is concrete and very wide. At best it's very sloppy. On the steel mat runways the whole process is very iffy.

How about putting the assist back, please...?

Edited October 22, 2021 by HotTom

[Basco1]

Eureka...I've got it!.....I did'nt give up in the end,it was just eating at me to nail this blessed monster......here's the method I have now adopted to take off without assistance or auto rudder on.

I will firstly state that this is by no means my findings or a method that I have created it is 'Holbeach's' method that he kindly posted on Thursday post update,on the 'Tips for taking off with the Mosquito?' thread,so all credit goes to him....Thank you very much Holbeach I can't thank you enough Sir.....and I just want to use this opportunity to thank everyone that has helped me in their various ways to assist me sorting this out.

My problem was not advancing the 3000 rpm quick enough once I got rolling,after holding on the brakes advancing the throttles to 4 Ib and releasing the brakes to get rolling,which gives you a straight run without the use of the rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift.

He uses a different airfield but the method is the same regardless,I have just stuck to using Manston.

 

Holbeach's Method

Nose down 2.0, right rudder 0.5 tick, aileron right 1 tick, 15 deg flap. 3000 rpm.

Advance throttles to 4 lb against the brakes. Let go brakes, advance to 18 lb. boost.

This will give a straight run without use of rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift, when it will drift left. Compensate. Lift off at 120 mph. There is no spare runway now. Trees at end are closer now.

Wheels up, trim out nose up tendency. Flaps up, trim out nose down tendency. Stay level. build speed to 200 mph.

[bart]

Glad you nailed it Basco.

I also find with just slightly less than 2 ticks down elevator trim and no flaps, if I don't touch the stick at all the tail comes up when she's ready to fly then slight back pressure on the stick and airborne. Wheels up and trim to keep level and let the speed build, taking out the rudder trim as speed increases to keep the slip gauge right in the middle.

[Basco1]

19 hours ago, NineLine said:

Those of you missing Take-Off Assist, make sure you have auto-rudder on and see if that helps.

 

@NineLine.....Actually NineLine...I personally did not find this helpful,since there is so little power going to the rudder for stabilization,until the speed has built up....the main reason the team removed the 'assistance percentage' bar in the 'Special Options' I believe.So because of this there is no point IMHO in having this on.

For those still struggling with this I suggest you use the method I have adopted in the message above,courtesy of 'Holbeach'.....yesterday,before I found this gem of advice,I was getting two successful take off's if I was lucky,out of 5....today since adopting this method I am getting a confident 5 out of 5 successful take offs.....it's like a light has been switched on,lol.

@bart....Thank you my friend much appreciated 

 

***BTW If any member wants any help with their take offs please just message me I'd be glad to help.....I have done nothing but attempt Mosquito take offs for the past two days.....I have made all the take off mistakes known to man,written off countless aircraft but have now polished this art to a fine art.....with a little help from my friends of course.***

[grafspee]

22 hours ago, Basco1 said:

Yes,appreciated Graf but I can take off,fly and land the Spit,yes I went through the same pain as yourself I'm sure,but I've mastered that,with the assistance off,as I have all the other WW2 warbirds......but the Mosquito is a different beast altogether.

Question: Do you have the Mosquito ?

Yes i have, at beginning it rolls very nice, but once tail lifts hard part begins looks like i need to hold tail down a bit longer. Mosquito take off roll is very long compare to spitfire or p-51 so the rudder nightmare lasts longer. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by grafspee

[HotTom]

9 hours ago, Basco1 said:

Eureka...I've got it!.....I did'nt give up in the end,it was just eating at me to nail this blessed monster......here's the method I have now adopted to take off without assistance or auto rudder on.

I will firstly state that this is by no means my findings or a method that I have created it is 'Holbeach's' method that he kindly posted on Thursday post update,on the 'Tips for taking off with the Mosquito?' thread,so all credit goes to him....Thank you very much Holbeach I can't thank you enough Sir.....and I just want to use this opportunity to thank everyone that has helped me in their various ways to assist me sorting this out.

My problem was not advancing the 3000 rpm quick enough once I got rolling,after holding on the brakes advancing the throttles to 4 Ib and releasing the brakes to get rolling,which gives you a straight run without the use of the rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift.

He uses a different airfield but the method is the same regardless,I have just stuck to using Manston.

 

Holbeach's Method

Nose down 2.0, right rudder 0.5 tick, aileron right 1 tick, 15 deg flap. 3000 rpm.

Advance throttles to 4 lb against the brakes. Let go brakes, advance to 18 lb. boost.

This will give a straight run without use of rudder or brakes until shortly after tail lift, when it will drift left. Compensate. Lift off at 120 mph. There is no spare runway now. Trees at end are closer now.

Wheels up, trim out nose up tendency. Flaps up, trim out nose down tendency. Stay level. build speed to 200 mph.

I came to a very similar conclusion yesterday (10/22) by a day of trial and error. Mainly, I wasn't accelerating quickly enough. Certainly glad that's sorted!

Tip: If you are using the Normandy map for Mosquito, Tangmire has a long paved runway.

[grafspee]

This is what i came out after some practicing. My rudder coordination still sucks after rudder pedals change, new one has like  twice the movement range which my legs still reject

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by grafspee

[Yo-Yo]

So, temporary removal of the rollers was useful...

null

[Basco1]

13 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

So, temporary removal of the rollers was useful...

null

Yes true.....But I think I have been subjected to DCS tough love ?....ROFL

[HotTom]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:58 PM, Yo-Yo said:

So, temporary removal of the rollers was useful...

null

Allowing the "trainer wheels" as an option is still a good idea.

[Basco1]

Just a heads up......after the latest update to the Open Beta 2.7.7.15038,the 'take off assistance' percentage bar has been re implemented into the 'Special Options' section,this will be on as default,so just remember guys to switch this off again if you have mastered the take off procedure,as I now have courtesy of team removing it in the update before.

After spending hours mastering this there is no way I'm going backwards.

[Lobo LXII]

I had started Holding the brakes and throttling up to about 2600 rpm then releasing the brakes. Going to try the stick neutral, nose down trim close to two 'ticks' tonight.  

[Terry Dactil]

Yes. Don't release the brakes until the power has completely stabilized and it goes straight like it's on rails.

To be pedantic, with equal thrust from both engines there should be a slight left turning tendency due to the 'P-factor' offsetting the total thrust line slightly to the right of the aircraft centerline.

However, if you have noticed this, just set slightly more boost on the left engine before you release the brakes and it will be gone.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Terry Dactil

[Cheap_Trick]

Well, against my better judgement to purchase an early release, I decided it was time to help the team.  Even with 'Assist On', I'm unable to get a lift off from the runway.  By the time I reach the opposite threshold, my speed is a mere 98 knots.  So I will assume it is something that I'm doing wrong or something that I am not doing correctly.   This was a simple mission editor take off assignment where I gave the Mossie 16% fuel and no ammo for the guns...and I still couldn't get a proper take-off.  By the end of the runway, I had pulled a mere 40 feet off the ground, left engine smoking and was forced to land her in a nearby field not far from the runway.

 

So to reiterate, 16% fuel, no ammo, full flaps....no take off.

If there is a step in the take off procedure, I am all ears with pencil in hand.  Unable to solve this hickup via Youtube to date. 

Greetings to All

Eddy