Question for Spring-Less Pedal Users: Use Yaw AP or Don't use Yaw AP?

[Lurker]

Hi All, recently I removed the springs from my pedals for easier helicopter operations. It's a strange, fun ride in the Mi24p ever since  For example, now I have much better control at any kind of maneuvering during forward flight, but as soon as I approach hover, or close to hover speeds oh boy...the problems start to multiply quickly. 

I have been using the spring-less pedals without turning on the YAW channel, but should I really be doing that? So how do you guys (with damper pedals) fly the Hind? Yaw AP on? or Yaw AP off? Pros, Cons? 

One other question, related to that. Do you put in any deadzone to your pedals in the controls?

[MAXsenna]

Hi All, recently I removed the springs from my pedals for easier helicopter operations. It's a strange, fun ride in the Mi24p ever since  For example, now I have much better control at any kind of maneuvering during forward flight, but as soon as I approach hover, or close to hover speeds oh boy...the problems start to multiply quickly. 
I have been using the spring-less pedals without turning on the YAW channel, but should I really be doing that? So how do you guys (with damper pedals) fly the Hind? Yaw AP on? or Yaw AP off? Pros, Cons? 
One other question, related to that. Do you put in any deadzone to your pedals in the controls?

Well, I don't have any dampers, but in the cheapo TM rudders, the spring is super easy to remove/reinstall.
Haven't really tested in the Hind yet, but I fly without the yaw damper, and have done some extensive testing in the Mi-8.
For long flights, I might turn it on, but I also often turn it off manually because there seems to be a strange issue with trimming. It's like the autopilot accumulates the trimming after a while, unless I do so. This can be seen in the "Controls Indicator", where your torque pedals don't have the same authority anymore, until I reset trimming, which is not realistic, and interfere with my stick trimming.
If I understand how this should work is that, you have the damper on. But when you step on the pedals, the microswitches should suspend it, and when you release pressure, a new heading for the autopilot will be entered. We can only hope ED will implement this in the future. Making a simple cheap force sensing mod for the pedals, seems very doable.

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[admiki]

No yaw AP, so I don't have to fight it during turns. No deadzone either, but  that depends on your pedals. If you take your time getting into hover, you should not have any issues with controlling yaw

 

[sLYFa]

I dont use the yaw AP at all. It takes a bit of practice to put in the right amount of pedal on takeoff and when transitioning from forward flight to hover, but once you figure that out you dont need yaw stab for takeoff/landing. The one thing I'm missing though is having yaw stab in cruise, since yaw stab wont engage if your physical pedals are off center (which they mostly are in cruise flight) 

[Hiob]

I made myself a quick release for the spring in my mfg pedals. In helicopters I fly without the spring and I don't use the Yaw AP.

I have no problems in hovering though. Turns left (unintentionally) -> a little more pressure to the right and vice versa.

Perhaps you need to add a curve to your pedals. No deadzone for me either.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Hiob

[Lurker]

Is there no one who has tried Spring-Less and YAW on? I guess I'll have to experiment

[sLYFa]

The problem with springless and yaw-on is that the AP will move your virtual pedals while your physical pedals remain stationary, getting the two out of sync which defeats the purpose IMHO.

[Hiob]

48 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

The problem with springless and yaw-on is that the AP will move your virtual pedals while your physical pedals remain stationary, getting the two out of sync which defeats the purpose IMHO.

That's a very good point.

Also, being springless makes the AP somewhat useless. Since you only need to set the pedals only once, when in a stabilized cruise. As long as you don't change speed or collective or want to maneuver, simply don't touch them.

 

What we really need are ffb pedals!

Edited October 18, 2021 by Hiob

[Rongor]

Only today I noticed that in Chuck's guide for the Hind Chuck claims that using the (force) trim button on the cyclic affects rudder trim as well in the real Hind. So the Hind seems to be the first DCS helo module actually "allowing" rudder trimmer tickled in the special options, while rudder trimmer remains unrealistic in all the other DCS helos so far.

By using the rudder trimmer function in the Hind, the whole issue changes somewhat, you may want to give it a try...

Edited October 18, 2021 by Rongor
I like editing stuff

[GregP]

I made myself a quick release for the spring in my mfg pedals. In helicopters I fly without the spring and I don't use the Yaw AP.

Can you provide details on your quick release? I’ve got a damper too and have had my spring removed for awhile now, which obviously isn’t ideal.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, GregP said:

Can you provide details on your quick release? I’ve got a damper too and have had my spring removed for awhile now, which obviously isn’t ideal.

Sure 

[GregP]

Haha ok so, super high-tech then... Nice easy solution, thanks for the idea.

[Hiob]

 

5 hours ago, GregP said:

Haha ok so, super high-tech then... Nice easy solution, thanks for the idea.

Yeah, 3D-Printing a proper hook is on my to do list for a while.

Problem is, that it would only help the makeshift look, but wouldn’t work better probably.

I fixated the spring with a smaller zip tie on the other side, so it doesnt drop from the lever when released. It‘s really pretty easy to operate. matter of seconds.

I have a couple of spares around, in case I feel like loosening the strength (adjustment is a oneway obviously )

[Lurker]

18 hours ago, sLYFa said:

The problem with springless and yaw-on is that the AP will move your virtual pedals while your physical pedals remain stationary, getting the two out of sync which defeats the purpose IMHO.

 

I don't see how? I mean you move the pedals, the AP turns off. You center them and the Yaw AP turns on. Sounds like it could be pretty usable. Some dead-zone may be required though. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Lurker

[Czechnology]

I typically fly without it. I would use it more if I could individually reset the trim position for my rudders and stick then that'd be one thing, but it has a tendency to screw up my trim positions. If the winds aren't wacky high and I've got around 5-10 minutes of transfer time I kick it on to make flying easier, but tend to switch if off (if not all my autopilots) when moving into contact.

[sLYFa]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

I don't see how? I mean you move the pedals, the AP turns off. You center them and the Yaw AP turns on. Sounds like it could be pretty usable. Some dead-zone may be required though. 

 

Because the point of having springless pedals is to develop muscle memory for how much pedal you need in a certain flight condition, which you cant if your virtual/physical pedals are out of sync.

[Lurker]

Yeah you have a point there. 

*edit*

This then leads me to my next question. YAW Off, but Damper ON or OFF? These two things are not the same thing AFAIK, but please correct me if Im wrong. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Lurker

[Hiob]

@Lurker

I don't know exactly what you mean with "damper" tbh. If you refer to the "stability augmentation" (the middle green light) which is meant to reduce PIO (pilot induced oscillation) -

that doesn't effect the rudder operation imho.

 

Edit: Oh, on second read. Do you mean the physical damper on the pedals (which were optional once)? Don't adjust it too tight. With more dampening you introduce some kind of treshold or "edge", when turning direction of movement. Try it out. They use a rather cheap steering damper that was meant to go on a bike, that is not exactly high end. If you tighten it to much, it will hurt your fine control, especially in small oscillating inputs. Less is more!

Edited October 19, 2021 by Hiob

[Hoirtel]

23 minutes ago, Hiob said:

@Lurker

I don't know exactly what you mean with "damper" tbh. If you refer to the "stability augmentation" (the middle green light) which is meant to reduce PIO (pilot induced oscillation) -

that doesn't effect the rudder operation imho.

 

Edit: Oh, on second read. Do you mean the physical damper on the pedals (which were optional once)? Don't adjust it too tight. With more dampening you introduce some kind of treshold or "edge", when turning direction of movement. Try it out. They use a rather cheap steering damper that was meant to go on a bike, that is not exactly high end. If you tighten it to much, it will hurt your fine control, especially in small oscillating inputs. Less is more!

 

I think he is referring to the pedal damper on the front cockpit panel, under a red cover.

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I think he is referring to the pedal damper on the front cockpit panel, under a red cover.

Yep thats it. The actual switch in the cockpit. 

[Hiob]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Yep thats it. The actual switch in the cockpit. 

Ahh, stupid me. My mind was still set to the Mi-8, sorry.

I can't say. I mean, I know that it exists and what it does, but I haven't flown the hind in a while. I can't say how it actually effects my flying with springless pedals.

I'll try out tonight.

[Hoirtel]

5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Yep thats it. The actual switch in the cockpit. 

Yeah, I've never really been sure how/when to use it, so I haven't. The fact that it is under a cover could possibly mean that it is only for occasional short term use? Taxiing?

I have spring loaded pedals and only switch yaw AP on when cruising but I'm not sure this is correct. Hence following this thread!

Edited October 19, 2021 by Hoirtel

[Hiob]

3 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Yeah, I've never really been sure how/when to use it, so I haven't. The fact that it is under a cover could possibly mean that it is only for occasional short term use? Taxiing?

I have spring loaded pedals and only switch yaw AP on when cruising but I'm not sure this is correct. Hence following this thread!

 

Makes sense. Both. I really can't see any practical use of yaw AP apart from cruise. I assume it would be very hindering in hover taxi. The use of dampening in potential dangerous situations like ground handling makes also sense to me.

[MAXsenna]

Ahh, stupid me. My mind was still set to the Mi-8, sorry.
I can't say. I mean, I know that it exists and what it does, but I haven't flown the hind in a while. I can't say how it actually effects my flying with springless pedals.
I'll try out tonight.

IIRC it is a safety that limits the full range, so you don't accidentally brake the tail rotor when flying. I have tried it while taxiing, but didn't really do anything for me.

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[admiki]

27 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

IIRC it is a safety that limits the full range, so you don't accidentally brake the tail rotor when flying. I have tried it while taxiing, but didn't really do anything for me.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Limit is controled by SPUU52, which is switch on top of AP panel. Yaw damper is switch on top left of the instrument panel, under red cover. It's purpose is to physicaly limit how fast you can move pedals, so you don't overstress tailboom. Mi24 is limited to yaw rate of 18°/sec.