Looking for Advice on PC Upgrade Direction

[Specter1075]

Hello all,

My build has received an enormous boost in the form of an RTX3080 TI FTW3 Ultra, thanks to the EVGA cue system. Now I am wondering what direction I should take with upgrading other components.

The rest of my build is from five-ish years ago, so not terribly old, and was fairly high end at the time. It may be that upgrades now may not be worth the cost, but I am not knowledgeable enough to say for sure. 

MSI ATX Z170A Gaming M7

I7-6700K 4.0GHz OC to 4.5GHz

32GB Corsair Platinum DDR4 3200
NZXT X61 Cooling
Corsair RM1000 Gold PSU

I understand that in its current state, DCS is very dependent on single core CPU speed. When I look at newer generation products, my understanding is that they perform better, but their single core speed does not superficially seem better than what mine does. I know there is something I am not understanding, so can anyone say what benefits I could see if I were to upgrade? Would the gains be substantial or wasted effort? 

Same kind of question for RAM. I see much higher speed DDR4 is available, but am I going to see gains in upgrading? Or am I better to go to 64GB?

I suppose if I do forge ahead with upgrades, I'll likely be looking at a new MB too?

Thanks for any and all advice!

EDIT:

 

Forgot to mention that I fly VR with a Reverb G2.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Specter1075

[xoxen]

Hi Specter,

the G2 comes with high resolution on both eyes (2160x2160 when I remember right). I´m running a triple screen setup (7680x1440) and updated my PC this year and was in a similar situation, but the other way around (first CPU, then GPU with a time shipft of 3 month). I should have listened to what MSI Afterburner OSD clearly told me. At the time of the upgrade I ran a GTX 1080 Ti combined with a i7 4790K. The utilization of the GPU was at 100% at that time. The CPU still had enough room left. Switching to a Ryzen 7 5800X did not change the situation at all (GPU 100%, CPU now even lower). I thought about DDR3 --> DDR4 and new technique as well but the benefit was not there, in fact I lost 1 FPS in a given scene. An upgrade to an RX 6800 XT brought an additional 10% (same thing, GPU utilized at 100%, CPU was bored). Very disappointing for a 2200 EUR investment (I´m not against the AMD card, it performs well at 1080p and 1440p, also 4k, but not 3x 1440p). Finally I bought a RTX 3080 which brough 50% more FPS in the mentioned scene (I use this for comparison). Again the GPU is at 100%, now the CPU is utilized a little higher, but still not at its limits.

Conclusion: Install MSI Afterburner and have a look on what your PC is doing (you can watch every single CPU core with it to exclude that one of it runs also at 100%). If you see the GPU utilized at 100%, a CPU upgrage will barely help you. If it is below, push the trigger

I hope this helps.

Xoxen

P.S.: I had 32 GB DDR 3 before and on a crowded Syria Server it was filled completely. Now with 64 GB DDR 4 I saw it filled up to 42 GB. But it was nothing I noticed in the Cockpit. Based on my experience DCS takes what it gets, but this does not necessarily result into better or more fluent performance.

Edited October 16, 2021 by xoxen

[nikita_nomad]

I currently run i7 4770, and it's about 30 to 50% utilised. And gpu is at 100%. I am getting another 16 Ram, in the coming weeks to make it 32, as its max possible size for my mobo. But I imagine nowadays with multiplayer even 64 is not extreme anymore. So my point is I don't think you will get much improvement from changing cpu, I would rather suggest additional ram.

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[BitMaster]

You misinterprete the CPU value. You refer to the total CPU load but for DCS it is far more important to see each individual core as it mainly uses 1 core to run the game and a few other in addition for other tasks. YOu will never see DCS use 100% on modern CPUs, they have too many cores of which DCS currently makes no use of.

 

Look at the individual CPU graph ( logical cores in Task Manager ) and you will see that 1 core is likely at 95-100% most of the time.

 

More RAM makes sense but I would hesitate to buy a new "old" board and another 16GB of new "old" DDR3 RAM. Maybe a new board-cpu-ram combo makes more sense !?

 

 

[nikita_nomad]

You misinterprete the CPU value. You refer to the total CPU load but for DCS it is far more important to see each individual core as it mainly uses 1 core to run the game and a few other in addition for other tasks. YOu will never see DCS use 100% on modern CPUs, they have too many cores of which DCS currently makes no use of.
 
Look at the individual CPU graph ( logical cores in Task Manager ) and you will see that 1 core is likely at 95-100% most of the time.
 
More RAM makes sense but I would hesitate to buy a new "old" board and another 16GB of new "old" DDR3 RAM. Maybe a new board-cpu-ram combo makes more sense !?
 
 

I see what you mean and definitely agree on it. In my current situation I'm just on a super tight budget. And swapping mobo and adding ram will set me for about a 100£, on the other hand if I go all in mobo new cpu and ram I will end up in the area of 500-600 I think, for a decent one. I would love to do it but first I need a new gpu and then everything else. Also I'm adding ram now so that I can run multiplayer to at least some extent. But my potato rig will still be a potato rig, even with 32 ram and I'm still waiting for stock on trackir5

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[agrasyuk]

 

That answer is always same: get the latest generation, best CPU that you can afford.

If you can afford i5 level than that's the best that you can have. Have a bit extra $ for i7 or i9?  that's your CPU then. Just keep in mind the diminishing returns.

If you need to purchase right now 11th series Intel CPUs are it. If you can wait few month you will be able to get the 12th series (or is it out already?). I'm not going to address offering by AMD. 

I do not see DCS requiring more than 32gb of RAM as of today. If you have use for extra RAM like heavy editing, software development, etc. or have extra cash, go for it. 

 

Good luck. 

[The_Nephilim]

On 10/15/2021 at 7:43 PM, Specter1075 said:

Hello all,

My build has received an enormous boost in the form of an RTX3080 TI FTW3 Ultra, thanks to the EVGA cue system. Now I am wondering what direction I should take with upgrading other components.

The rest of my build is from five-ish years ago, so not terribly old, and was fairly high end at the time. It may be that upgrades now may not be worth the cost, but I am not knowledgeable enough to say for sure. 

MSI ATX Z170A Gaming M7

I7-6700K 4.0GHz OC to 4.5GHz

32GB Corsair Platinum DDR4 3200
NZXT X61 Cooling
Corsair RM1000 Gold PSU

I understand that in its current state, DCS is very dependent on single core CPU speed. When I look at newer generation products, my understanding is that they perform better, but their single core speed does not superficially seem better than what mine does. I know there is something I am not understanding, so can anyone say what benefits I could see if I were to upgrade? Would the gains be substantial or wasted effort? 

Same kind of question for RAM. I see much higher speed DDR4 is available, but am I going to see gains in upgrading? Or am I better to go to 64GB?

I suppose if I do forge ahead with upgrades, I'll likely be looking at a new MB too?

Thanks for any and all advice!

EDIT:

 

Forgot to mention that I fly VR with a Reverb G2.

 

well I followed the advice of the experts and went with a new CPU,Motherboard and did not gain much if anything. I should have gotten a better Video Card when I had the chance and then Covid no no GPU's to be had I am on a que list but it has been many moons since I signed up..

 

The 6700k should push your new 3080ti pretty well. IF I could go back knowing what I know now I would have kept my old CPU 7600K and upgrade the video card..

 

As for the faster speed everybody says 3200 is the sweetspot but you could just try manually OC your RAM you should get a few hunderd more hz and the good thing is to see if there was a benefit just bench the current PC Put in the new video card and bench and try too OC the memory, then bench and you will see if there was any gain..

 

I, would say for now just throw the new video card in when you get it and remove the old drivers with DDU and reinstall new drivers and see how it performs. then you can get an idea by looking at some youtube videos of people with a newer CPU and that card and benchmarking some games hopefully you will find a few who did it with DCS and you will see firsthand if the improvement they got will be worth it too you..

 

What monitor/VR solution are you using? I will add this Cinebench test I did with my 9700K @ 4.8ghz Single core test. If you can find Cinebench R23 get it then you can compare your single core score with a newer CPU.. I have added my 10700K as well. the new 11th series does well but you gotta ask yourself just how many FPS/Frametimes do you need? so based on your monitor if it is only a 60hz monitor no point in going over 60FPS and so on.

 

one reason is you work the GPU harder then it needs too and most modern CPU's still work well enough. I have a modern cpu but older GPU and I can get well over 100FPS in DCS, on my Monitor which is 1920 x 1080 60hz, with your 3080 you should be pushin alot more then that.. basically all I am saying is there is no need for all that horsepower with the "monitors Hz rate" being the governor on it.

So depending on that you can kinda figure what kind system would be best for your use. for me with the G2 I could use a way more powerful GPU but with Motion Reprojection kinda helps out, while it would be nice just is not gonna happen.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by The_Nephilim
added images CineBench R23 test.

[Lurker]

For now the best advice would be to wait. There is really no reason to upgrade to anything just yet, Alder Lake is around the corner and we need to see what AMD will come up with to counter it. Prices in PC Hardware have gone up through the roof, and hopefully they will stabilize once the Pandemic is taken care of but for now there is no real good reason to buy anything new unless you are getting a steal on the price, or you have a component fail on you. 

[nikita_nomad]

For now the best advice would be to wait. There is really no reason to upgrade to anything just yet, Alder Lake is around the corner and we need to see what AMD will come up with to counter it. Prices in PC Hardware have gone up through the roof, and hopefully they will stabilize once the Pandemic is taken care of but for now there is no real good reason to buy anything new unless you are getting a steal on the price, or you have a component fail on you. 

Do you know if there's a way to check if gpu was used for mining? And how bad it is if it was? I'm desperate to change my gpu, but ebay is the only place with somewhat stock atm, even tho its all second hand.

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[Lurker]

11 minutes ago, nikita_nomad said:

Do you know if there's a way to check if gpu was used for mining? And how bad it is if it was? I'm desperate to change my gpu, but ebay is the only place with somewhat stock atm, even tho its all second hand.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about that. If the card is completely functional, and not defective in some way, and has been used within its normal thermal limits. Most miners usually take good care of their hardware, it would be too expensive for them to do otherwise. 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Lurker

[nikita_nomad]

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about that. If the card is completely functional, and not defective in some way, and has been used within its normal thermal limits. Most miners usually take good care of their hardware, it would be too expensive for them to do otherwise. 
 

Nice one, thanks for the link. Im surprised, and a bit relieved to be fair. Linus the myth buster. Good to know really, as new gpus are imposible to get hands on and the prices now are just stupid.

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[Lurker]

1 minute ago, nikita_nomad said:

Nice one, thanks for the link. Im surprised, and a bit relieved to be fair. Linus the myth buster. Good to know really, as new gpus are imposible to get hands on and the prices now are just stupid.

Sent from my SM-T870 using Tapatalk
 

 

Yeah with all of that said, a small caveat always buy from a very trusted ebay seller. Nothing worse than having a DOA card (or anything else for that matter). 

[nikita_nomad]

 
Yeah with all of that said, a small caveat always buy from a very trusted ebay seller. Nothing worse than having a DOA card (or anything else for that matter). 

Yeah I know, but still some light in the end of the tunnel.

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[Bossco82]

Replying to Specter1075...

I dont see any major reason to jump and upgrade your CPU, Mobo or Dram right now. Sit tight and see what prices Intels Alder Lake comes out at. Or see how low the prices for AMD 5000/X570 series drop to when Alder Lake is released.

I will offer this advise. I am not an expert but a long time PC user (since the 90's) who happily plays DCS at 4k 60fps without chasing stutters. See how your PC is performing and what parts are reaching their limit for yourself. Whether you are on AMD, Intel or Nvidia it doesn't matter. Download MSI Afterburner Beta, the latest one at the time. If you dig around in the setting you can set up the in game overlay to show all your PC components usages. 

Another useful tool is the Windows "Resource Monitor" open it up before you open DCS. While flying if you notice a fps drop. Pause and "ALT/TAB" out as quickly as you can. See if an individual core is maxed out in a certain area. Then you will know for sure if your CPU is reaching its limit. A few hours loading up DCS for the purpose of evaluating your PC's performance within DCS can save you a lot of money and guide your upgrade requirements if you have them. 

 

Addressing the mining kills GPU rumours on the internet. If someone does mining it is mainly using the memory and the memory bandwidth, thats one of the limiting factors. They will attempt to run the GPU at a much lower and limited clock speed often half of what a gaming clock speed would be. They will also try to run it under the lowest core voltage possible. So they will mine on a low clock speed with sometimes lower than idle voltage on the core. If someone does not mine this way they are stupid, dont look after their stuff and you dont want to buy anything off them anyway. The only real thing to check on a GPU that has been used for mining is dust in the heatsink as they are often run 24/7. That and check the fans spin up ok. they might be worn out if its a couple of years old. At worst the performance of the thermal pads could have degraded, no more though than if someone gamed on it for playing esports for 8 hours a day.

Buying a used GPU. Just look at the advert closely. If someone has put effort into a description and well taken photos then you a probably ok. Look for if it is boxed and comes with everything as if it was new. There is no 100% certainty, but looking for these signs reduces the probability. If you buy a used GPU when you install it. Run a game with vsync off and the settings maxed out, drive it as hard as you can for an hour. If there are no artefacts then it is probably ok. Check the temps, if these dont go up too high then the fans, thermal pads and heatsink are ok. Another thing to do, check that model of GPU on a review site, look at how it performed in the games list then do a comparison if you have one of those games. 

Taking a little time to learn how all this stuff ticks will really help you out and give you a better understanding and experience enjoying PC gaming. 

 

 

[nikita_nomad]

Replying to Specter1075...
I dont see any major reason to jump and upgrade your CPU, Mobo or Dram right now. Sit tight and see what prices Intels Alder Lake comes out at. Or see how low the prices for AMD 5000/X570 series drop to when Alder Lake is released.
I will offer this advise. I am not an expert but a long time PC user (since the 90's) who happily plays DCS at 4k 60fps without chasing stutters. See how your PC is performing and what parts are reaching their limit for yourself. Whether you are on AMD, Intel or Nvidia it doesn't matter. Download MSI Afterburner Beta, the latest one at the time. If you dig around in the setting you can set up the in game overlay to show all your PC components usages. 
Another useful tool is the Windows "Resource Monitor" open it up before you open DCS. While flying if you notice a fps drop. Pause and "ALT/TAB" out as quickly as you can. See if an individual core is maxed out in a certain area. Then you will know for sure if your CPU is reaching its limit. A few hours loading up DCS for the purpose of evaluating your PC's performance within DCS can save you a lot of money and guide your upgrade requirements if you have them. 
 
Addressing the mining kills GPU rumours on the internet. If someone does mining it is mainly using the memory and the memory bandwidth, thats one of the limiting factors. They will attempt to run the GPU at a much lower and limited clock speed often half of what a gaming clock speed would be. They will also try to run it under the lowest core voltage possible. So they will mine on a low clock speed with sometimes lower than idle voltage on the core. If someone does not mine this way they are stupid, dont look after their stuff and you dont want to buy anything off them anyway. The only real thing to check on a GPU that has been used for mining is dust in the heatsink as they are often run 24/7. That and check the fans spin up ok. they might be worn out if its a couple of years old. At worst the performance of the thermal pads could have degraded, no more though than if someone gamed on it for playing esports for 8 hours a day.
Buying a used GPU. Just look at the advert closely. If someone has put effort into a description and well taken photos then you a probably ok. Look for if it is boxed and comes with everything as if it was new. There is no 100% certainty, but looking for these signs reduces the probability. If you buy a used GPU when you install it. Run a game with vsync off and the settings maxed out, drive it as hard as you can for an hour. If there are no artefacts then it is probably ok. Check the temps, if these dont go up too high then the fans, thermal pads and heatsink are ok. Another thing to do, check that model of GPU on a review site, look at how it performed in the games list then do a comparison if you have one of those games. 
Taking a little time to learn how all this stuff ticks will really help you out and give you a better understanding and experience enjoying PC gaming. 
 
 

Thanks for advice! Dcs Community better then Google and YouTube altogether.

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[Bossco82]

This is only for users on this forum who want to build or upgrade a PC for DCS, nothing else. Unless you are going to use a 4k monitor/TV, A multi screen setup or high resolution VR setup. You probably dont need the very latest kit to fly in DCS with some if not all the eye candy turned on. I advised on two setups for friends who have families and other financial responsibilities during the lockdown in the UK. They wanted to get into PC gaming more, both systems were eBay specials because of the supply problems. Both could run DCS just fine on high settings at 1440p resolution. This is just an example guys...

Setup #1. AMD 3600 non X, X470 mobo, 32gb 3200 DDR4, 5700XT, 1tb Sata 3 SSD, 120mm AIO, 650w Gold PSU, overclock with undervolt on CPU/GPU using Radeon and Ryzen Master. 

Setup #2 Intel 7600k, Z270 Mobo, 32gb 3200 DDR4 with XMP, 2070 Super, 1tb Sata 3 SSD, Be Quiet 120mm Cooler, 600w Gold PSU, Overclock with offset voltage in bios on CPU, undervolt on close to max boost clock on GPU using MSI Afterburner.

All this stuff was used but sourced carefully over a couple of weeks. They were put together last Autumn for the Intel system and this Spring for the AMD system. Like I said both happily run DCS at 1440p as well as all the games in these guys Steam libraries etc. 

Now if you are going for high setting using high resolution such as 4k or in VR. You will probably benefit from the latest GPU's and will probably need a CPU/Mobo from AMD 2000 series or even the 3000 series. If its Intel then a 7700k and upwards. You will need 32gb of dram. Something like a 5700xt or a 2060 Super can do it but at the cost of sacrificing the detail in DCS settings. It will not look terrible. Finally as for the AMD vs Nvidia battle regarding the latest high end GPU's. My MSI 6800xt will run DCS just fine at 4k. However I have had my hands on a 3080 and 3080ti. The 3080 is slightly better for DCS at high resolution but not worth it if its going to costs loads more. The 3080ti I tested is definitely better than my 6800xt. Once you turn the resolution up, the high end AMD cards can do it and well, but Nvidia still hold the crown I'm afraid. 

Please remember that all this is "advise" based on my actual experiences putting together gaming PC's with various parts and seeing how they perform in DCS.

 

[Thinder]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:43 AM, Specter1075 said:

Hello all,

My build has received an enormous boost in the form of an RTX3080 TI FTW3 Ultra, thanks to the EVGA cue system. Now I am wondering what direction I should take with upgrading other components.

The rest of my build is from five-ish years ago, so not terribly old, and was fairly high end at the time. It may be that upgrades now may not be worth the cost, but I am not knowledgeable enough to say for sure. 

MSI ATX Z170A Gaming M7

I7-6700K 4.0GHz OC to 4.5GHz

32GB Corsair Platinum DDR4 3200
NZXT X61 Cooling
Corsair RM1000 Gold PSU

I understand that in its current state, DCS is very dependent on single core CPU speed. When I look at newer generation products, my understanding is that they perform better, but their single core speed does not superficially seem better than what mine does. I know there is something I am not understanding, so can anyone say what benefits I could see if I were to upgrade? Would the gains be substantial or wasted effort? 

Same kind of question for RAM. I see much higher speed DDR4 is available, but am I going to see gains in upgrading? Or am I better to go to 64GB?

I suppose if I do forge ahead with upgrades, I'll likely be looking at a new MB too?

Thanks for any and all advice!

EDIT:

 

Forgot to mention that I fly VR with a Reverb G2.

 

 

Myself am an advocate of the best RAM-to-CPU bounding, for the simple reason that the result can outperform a more expensive CPU or an O.C liquid cooling kit, here is an example:

A 5600X run at 4.6 GHz, the Ryzen 7 5800X at 4.7GHz just below 2.13% difference, even less when a 5800X is bounded with an average (non premium) RAM kit.

I gained 6.04% at 4K in CPU speed (*) by eliminating the latency bottleneck and making full use of the Ryzen architecture, which is more than double of the average one can expoect from O.Cing it with a water-cooled kit.

My RAM kit runs at its standard frequencies and it means that I retain full warranty for both RAM and CPU.

Passed that it's everyone choice, Motherborard, I didn't need WI-FI and a lot of features I never use, so the cheapest MSI gaming board does just fine, when it comes to CPU it's another matter altogether.

As Bossco82 rightly pointed out, there is always a premium to pay for higher peformances especially true when it comes to GPU and the 3080Ti seems to be one of the top cards, but at the moment it is out of my budget and playing DCS, if a good GPU is needed, remains mostly CPU-heavy, so his solution, even in VR at 4K remains viable.

In short, some systems and solutions looks like they can give better results with a game than another and I am optimizing mime for DCS and CPU performances, to this regard the combination of the 5600X and Cl 14 RAM kit looks by far like the best solution.

(*) This is not the top (boost) frequency but the speed at which the CPU will throttle down due to controller/RAM constraints under load, which is precisely what happend when one plays DCS at 4K and/or VR.

By saying "I gained" 6.04%, I meant precisely this, my CPU will keep running at optimal frequency under 6.04% more load than if it was bounded with a Cl16 RAM kit, it doesn't mean that it will run at 6.04% higher frequency than its stock boost frequency.

Still, it is a gain of speed compared to the same CPU bounded with a Cl16 RAM kit, in the case of Intel and the previous generation of AMD CPUs, those B.die Cl14 3200 MHz kits are used for best results for RAM O.C, they offer a much tighter range of timing which allows for this, impossible with non-B.die chips.

The new generation Ryzen responds a lot more to lower latency and are not as dependent on frequencies as the previous, plus both have a limitation when it comes to controllers, 4 ranks in total when 3200MHz is set, so fitting 4 sticks of dual rank 3600MHz Cl16 will de facto limit the performances of the CPU under load, despite the increased freequency.

You need to know this before you splash dosh into RAM whatever solutions you chose.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Thinder