Steering while taxiing: which wheel brake control works best?

[wernst]

Steering while taxiing the Mossi is challenging, because it's done by differential braking. In order to steer precisely, you need to apply more or less force to the wheel brakes - carefully. Binding the wheel brakes to the pinky lever on my TM Warthog stick is not sensitive at all. Because it only allows digital ON / OFF braking, it is not an analog brake axis.               

I tried binding the wheel brakes to the analog axis of the right toe brake. The result wasn't great. Steering with both rudder pedals and at the same time carefully apply more or less braking force to only one toe brake often ended in the grass next to the runway.

Yes, I know, one answer will be: practice, practice . . . 
Any other smart tip?

(I have the Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Stick and Throttle, Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals).

Edited October 15, 2021 by wernst

[Nealius]

I set the brake axis to both my left and right toe brakes on my Saitek pedals. That way I can brake with whichever foot is easiest for that rudder position. 

[Olddog]

I bind the left and right brakes to my MFG rudder toe pedals. Kick in a little ruder in the direction of the turn  (think nose wheel steering)  and then each brake will operate like any other analog brake. 

[wernst]

48 minutes ago, Nealius said:

I set the brake axis to both my left and right toe brakes on my Saitek pedals. That way I can brake with whichever foot is easiest for that rudder position. 

Yes, done. I thought I can bind the wheel brakes to one of both toe brakes only. It works far better now as toe brake and rudder input is on the same side (same foot)

Good point.    

[No1sonuk]

IIRC, the brakes are controlled by the rudder input and the brake lever.  It's the same as on the Spitfire - no toe brakes.

[scoobie]

I've been experimenting a little with the slew control (a.k.a. the "mouse nipple") on my TM Hawg throttle for this.
Due to the fact that this control is cr*ppy "touchy" and imprecise, I use it like this:
- center position = 0% brakes,
- full down = 50% brakes.
For "normal" 0%/100% brakes I still use the pinky button on the joystick. (The paddle would be nicer for that, but I use it as a modifier.)

I've had problems setting an appropriate curve in the "Axis Tune" window in DCS, so instead I used Joystick Gremlin and "Response Curve" - picture attached. I need no curves or special settings in DCS in this case.

To be honest, if you have a proper minijoystick, I think it should serve you really well for the common wheel brake axis (center = 0, full down or up = full brakes), but that nipple in TM Warthog... it's better than a button, that's all.

 

[Olddog]

That is true, I personally prefer proportional analog toe brakes. So that is what I use, if it offends anyone.. oh well 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Olddog

[Baldrick33]

I also use the slew control on my Warthog throttle. I have got the delta sim upgrade though. I just use the saturation setting in DCS axis tuning so only half the stick is used. So full up is max braking, centred is zero. It works pretty well, although a proper analogue brake is on my wish list for my next joystick whenever that may be!

[Morat]

IF only there was a mod to make the paddle switch on the warthog into an axis. Ah well.

[Sokol1_br]

1 hour ago, Morat said:

IF only there was a mod to make the paddle switch on the warthog into an axis. Ah well.

Not a "mod", but a relatively easy option for add  brake lever in Warthog or Cougar.

STL files for 3D print this "brake lever". Author MYCYJIbMAHUH in IL-2 Sturmovik.ru forum.

Use an cheap Arduino PRO Micro + MMjoy2 firmware as USB controller and an small 10K linear taper potentiometer for sensor.

Other possible option, use Joystick Gremlin and set this paddle button for increase/decrease an virtual axis.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Sokol1_br

[No1sonuk]

The STL link there doesn't work for me.

[Mogster]

10 hours ago, Morat said:

IF only there was a mod to make the paddle switch on the warthog into an axis. Ah well.

Yes. The WH really needs a couple more axis.

[wernst]

23 hours ago, No1sonuk said:

IIRC, the brakes are controlled by the rudder input and the brake lever.  It's the same as on the Spitfire - no toe brakes.

Correct, the real Mossi doesn't have toe brakes. But, it also doesn't have a handbrake lever that simply works as ON / OFF switch. The real Mossi's wheelbrakes are controlled by compressed air. The brake pressure can be gradually controlled by the linear movement of handbrake lever - which unfortunately is not simulated by the digital ON / OFF lever of a TM HOTAS.

Edited October 16, 2021 by wernst

[Sarge55]

Which odd since they have simulated it correctly in the Spitfire. 

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, Sarge55 said:

Which odd since they have simulated it correctly in the Spitfire. 

The Spitfire more gradually increases brake pressure whilst the digital button is held down. It makes it easier to modulate the braking. Obviously nowhere near as good as an analogue control but better than what seems an instant on/off action with the Mosquito. It is odd as I too would have expected the same method to be carried over.

[Morat]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:25 PM, Sokol1_br said:

Not a "mod", but a relatively easy option for add  brake lever in Warthog or Cougar.

STL files for 3D print this "brake lever". Author MYCYJIbMAHUH in IL-2 Sturmovik.ru forum.

Use an cheap Arduino PRO Micro + MMjoy2 firmware as USB controller and an small 10K linear taper potentiometer for sensor.

Other possible option, use Joystick Gremlin and set this paddle button for increase/decrease an virtual axis.

 

 

THat's pretty cool, but I think I'm going to go the whole hog and use Authentikit. Maybe I'm mad...

[Basco1]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:25 PM, Sokol1_br said:

Not a "mod", but a relatively easy option for add  brake lever in Warthog or Cougar.

STL files for 3D print this "brake lever". Author MYCYJIbMAHUH in IL-2 Sturmovik.ru forum.

Use an cheap Arduino PRO Micro + MMjoy2 firmware as USB controller and an small 10K linear taper potentiometer for sensor.

Other possible option, use Joystick Gremlin and set this paddle button for increase/decrease an virtual axis.

 

 

Is anybody selling these ?.....would dearly like to get my grubby mitts on one of these,I have'nt got a 3D printer so I'd have to buy the finished product.

[Baldrick33]

Another alternative for those without analog brake levers is to use a modifier and switch your joystick between pitch and wheel brake. By using a deadzone of 50 and setting as a sliderit is possible to just use the pulling back as brakes and centred is brakes off.

For taxiing use the modifier to use the joystick for wheel brakes and then switch to pitch part way on take off. When landing switch to wheel brakes by pressing the modifier. I tried using the China hat fwd as a modifier with my Warthog and I don’t use it for the Mosquito.

This provides a decent range of control. It does mean you lose pitch if wanting to pin the tail wheel down though. My initial experience seemed quite positive. (I would prefer an analogue lever like the one shown above though!)

[No1sonuk]

11 hours ago, Basco1 said:

Is anybody selling these ?.....would dearly like to get my grubby mitts on one of these,I have'nt got a 3D printer so I'd have to buy the finished product.

I'm in the process of building a couple for me and a friend.
The design he provided lacks some details that I've figured out. I also modified it to use a linear Hall effect sensor.
My prototype works well and has dramatically improved ground handling.

I'm planning to put a thread up on the Thrustmaster section over the weekend.

If I were to make more, I'd have to redesign the lever to make it easier to print - it currently requires supports and a LOT of cleanup after printing.
There's also the sticky issue that it's mostly someone else's design.

[lmp]

When I had the TWCS throttle, I used one of the rudder paddles for breaks in the a/cs that have a common break lever. Worked like a charm. I don't know if the TDC hat in the Warthog is an analog control? If it is, you could make it work by toggling the "slider" option, setting the dead zone to at least 50% and maybe inverting the axis in DCS settings. This way, half of the physical axis (from neutral to maximum deflection) corresponds to the full range of the in-game axis, if that makes sense. I don't suppose you use the TDC hat for anything in the Mossie so that might be an option for you?

[rkk01]

Mossie is easy to taxi steer using the joystick pinky…

I use full rudder deflection in the appropriate direction and “modulate” the brake steering with a variety of a quick dab, dabs or longer button press on the pinky trigger - works a treat 

(pinky mapped to W)

Edited November 7, 2021 by rkk01

[wernst]

3 hours ago, lmp said:

When I had the TWCS throttle, I used one of the rudder paddles for breaks in the a/cs that have a common break lever. Worked like a charm. I don't know if the TDC hat in the Warthog is an analog control? If it is, you could make it work by toggling the "slider" option, setting the dead zone to at least 50% and maybe inverting the axis in DCS settings. This way, half of the physical axis (from neutral to maximum deflection) corresponds to the full range of the in-game axis, if that makes sense. I don't suppose you use the TDC hat for anything in the Mossie so that might be an option for you?

Thank you, Imp, any helpful advice is welcome.

I have the TM Hotas Warthog combo. In the meantime I have tried different options to replace the (digital) on / off brake lever. Analog brakes binding to the rudder toe brakes pedals was an attempt, it was not ideal, it was worse. Rudder input and braking with your toes at the same time is somehow working, but sometimes only.
The TDC's small (analog) nipple wasn't a solution either. The control input path is far too small and is much too sensitive. You cannot enter 1/10 mm on the nipple with your fingertips in order to control the brakes smoothly and carefully.
In the meantime I have managed to place only 3 of 10 takeoff runs into the meadow. Yes, I suppose it is practice.

Edited November 7, 2021 by wernst

[Tea-Pig]

Sorry, I didn't see this thread and went and started another one when I should have just posted here. Hope it might help.

 

[Baldrick33]

3 hours ago, wernst said:

The TDC's small (analog) nipple wasn't a solution either. The control input path is far too small and is much too sensitive. You cannot enter 1/10 mm on the nipple with your fingertips in order to control the brakes smoothly and carefully.
In the meantime I have managed to place only 3 of 10 takeoff runs into the meadow. Yes, I suppose it is practice.

 

The Deltasim slew upgrade does make it much more controllable as a brake. My preferred solution is to use the back half of the stick pitch movement using the warthog digital brake lever as a modifier. Switch it on for taxiing and initial lining up on the runway, then switch to pitch once moving straight. Similarly switch it on at the secondary phase of landing. Using deadzone so that centred is brake off.

[LeCuvier]

For most aircrafts I use my TM WH grip in a VRP Base, plus the MfG pedals/wheelbrakes. For the Mosquito, Spit and MiG-21 however, steering on the ground is totally different and quite difficult with these controls. So when I fly any of these birds I use the VRP grip which has an analog lever for use with the Wheelbrake axis. That's the only one that works for me.