correct as-is Hornet take-off from carrier without catapult

[wernst]

I tested whether the simulation makes it possible to launch a Hornet from an aircraft carrier - without the aid of the catapult.

Yes, it's a crazy idea but worth a try.

 

The conditions:
Hornet on the CVN74 JC Stennis, no wind, carrier speed 22 kts, Temp 20 deg.C / QNH 29.92 
No weapons, only built in M61A2 Gun with ammo (1711 lbs) / fuel: 10808 lbs
Total take-off weight: 37,606 lbs
flaps half, brakes on, full throttle, brakes off
Indicated take-off speed at the end of the carrier 146 kts
A standard take-off from carrier without catapult seems to be possible when using the full length of the carrier "runway" - in the SIM!

 

 

[Foka]

You can even take off with wings folded (at least you could, I didn't do it for a long time)

[SUBS17]

It is possible to take off from a carrier without a catapult and land but it would be down to the inch.

[Grodin]

15 minutes ago, Foka said:

You can even take off with wings folded (at least you could, I didn't do it for a long time)

 

Even better i managed to fly like 100 miles with both wings completely blown off, oddly enough i was able to pull like 2-3 g turns without wings. So yeah, the flight model is not quite there yet :D

[bfr]

On 9/29/2021 at 7:04 PM, SUBS17 said:

It is possible to take off from a carrier without a catapult and land but it would be down to the inch.

 

Can't say i've tried an un-arrested Hornet carrier landing but I did manage it once in a Viggen (many died before the successful attempt though)

[TimRobertsen]

26 minutes ago, bfr said:

 

Can't say i've tried an un-arrested Hornet carrier landing but I did manage it once in a Viggen (many died before the successful attempt though)

 

All you need is some strong wind  

[pixie]

On 9/29/2021 at 8:14 PM, Grodin said:

 

Even better i managed to fly like 100 miles with both wings completely blown off, oddly enough i was able to pull like 2-3 g turns without wings. So yeah, the flight model is not quite there yet

The flight Model could be accurate even without wings being graphically rendered. Because you know this is a computer game and wings  are not actually interacting with air flow ? Do you ? ^^

[wernst]

15 hours ago, pixie said:

The flight Model could be accurate even without wings being graphically rendered. Because you know this is a computer game and wings  are not actually interacting with air flow ? Do you ? ^^

Precise calculation of a flight model is essential for a simulation. For this purpose, the interaction between the wings and the air flow must be simulated as precisely as possible in accordance with a given flight model. If the wings are rendered as non-existent, the flight model must not calculate with existing wings. DCS has a pretty good but not always optimal damage model. 

[pixie]

I could be wrong but I believe the rendered 3D model is not used in real time to compute the flight model.

This explain why some have flown with folded wings. 

In the same manner I don't think the damage modeling interaction with FM is based on the plane 3D render. 

Again, I'm no dev, and this is only a guess. 

 

 

[Gierasimov]

On 9/29/2021 at 8:14 PM, Grodin said:

 

Even better i managed to fly like 100 miles with both wings completely blown off, oddly enough i was able to pull like 2-3 g turns without wings. So yeah, the flight model is not quite there yet

Please post a track and report a bug. You know how it goes, no track - no bug. 

[tech_op2000]

Aircraft can generate lift without wings. Using fuselage lift. That is how one particular f15 landed with one wing missing IRL. And Rockets show us that anything is possible with enough thrust. As far as flying with the wings folded, for me it very much can fly with them folded in DCS, just with severely reduced roll stability and with increased speed necessary for the same amount of lift. Doesn't seem unrealistic to me, though no real world pilot would be dumb/brave enough to try on purpose. The question for @Grodin is: Did the plane fly as though it still had wings? or, did the plane fly as though it was a ballistic missile using mostly thrust and a little bit of fuselage lift to fly? If the first, then that is a bug that although uncommon is possible if the flight model and visual model don't sync up. If the second, Then it might actually be possible under the right conditions. It does make me wonder though, how much fuel on the f18 is stored in the fuselage vs the wings...

 

[Steel Jaw]

Fine fine, but I see any no carrier aircraft trying that crap on the servers, I will gun them.  Notorious issue on the Aeobatics Online servers.

[Bunny Clark]

On 9/29/2021 at 11:49 AM, wernst said:

A standard take-off from carrier without catapult seems to be possible when using the full length of the carrier "runway" - in the SIM!

In "Fight Fight" by Kevin Miller, both Legacy and Super Hornets are able to successfully take off by doing deck runs without a catapult. 

 

It's a fictional story, but I expect that he knows what he's talking about. 

[wernst]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:41 PM, tech_op2000 said:

Aircraft can generate lift without wings. Using fuselage lift. 

That is exactly right. And, one step further: Mount a powerful jet turbine on a piano and install two small flat boards on it as stabilizers - this piano will fly.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to steer this beast, but that's irrelevant, right?

Edited October 10, 2021 by wernst

[Stearmandriver]

Quote

As far as flying with the wings folded, for me it very much can fly with them folded in DCS, just with severely reduced roll stability and with increased speed necessary for the same amount of lift. 

I've accidently spawned on a cat and launched more than once with folded wings, with no affect whatsoever.  I never even realized they were folded until another player pointed it out. Plane flew exactly the same.  So no, I don't think the visual state of the model has much to do with its flight model lol. 

[Grodin]

On 10/9/2021 at 12:41 AM, tech_op2000 said:

Aircraft can generate lift without wings. Using fuselage lift. That is how one particular f15 landed with one wing missing IRL. And Rockets show us that anything is possible with enough thrust. As far as flying with the wings folded, for me it very much can fly with them folded in DCS, just with severely reduced roll stability and with increased speed necessary for the same amount of lift. Doesn't seem unrealistic to me, though no real world pilot would be dumb/brave enough to try on purpose. The question for @Grodin is: Did the plane fly as though it still had wings? or, did the plane fly as though it was a ballistic missile using mostly thrust and a little bit of fuselage lift to fly? If the first, then that is a bug that although uncommon is possible if the flight model and visual model don't sync up. If the second, Then it might actually be possible under the right conditions. It does make me wonder though, how much fuel on the f18 is stored in the fuselage vs the wings...

 

Yeah there was definetly something missing, it did not fly very well. But it did fly and i could steer.

[Mars Exulte]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:58 AM, pixie said:

This explain why some have flown with folded wings. 

  None of this has anything to do with whether or not the FM is accurate. Planes can and HAVE flown with wings folded. That doesn't magically alter physics or make the plane uncontrollable (necessarily), it DOES greatly lower lift, increase drag, and greatly increase landing speed.

 

  Likewise for wings being damaged (haven't seen the condition of the aircraft being mentioned earlier) but planes can and HAVE flown with large sections of their wings sheered off, especially if it is a lifting body design. If it's one wing this induces a roll, but not necessarily uncontrollable. If it's both wings then it cancels itself out and the plane is effectively flying with reduced lift.

 

  Whether a plane can fly or not is ENTIRELY down to whether there is sufficient lift (in some cases simply increasing speed can compensate for this) and whether or not it is controllable. There are NUMEROUS examples of aircraft flying with folded or damaged/missing wings.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[Stearmandriver]

All true, but as you noted, those planes probably flew very differently.  Launch a Hornet with wings folded and see if you can tell the difference ;).

[Swift.]

On 10/9/2021 at 4:57 AM, Bunny Clark said:

In "Fight Fight" by Kevin Miller, both Legacy and Super Hornets are able to successfully take off by doing deck runs without a catapult. 

 

It's a fictional story, but I expect that he knows what he's talking about. 

Theres also a section about it in CV Natops, so I imagine its something thats been considered.

[mcnabb100]

18 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

All true, but as you noted, those planes probably flew very differently.  Launch a Hornet with wings folded and see if you can tell the difference ;).

It's been a while, but the last time I did this there was a very noticeable difference in roll stability at low speeds. It caused a lot of dutch roll and made the approach very difficult. 

[SUBS17]

 

The Kuznetsov is fun to visit. 

On 10/16/2021 at 2:47 AM, Mars Exulte said:

  None of this has anything to do with whether or not the FM is accurate. Planes can and HAVE flown with wings folded. That doesn't magically alter physics or make the plane uncontrollable (necessarily), it DOES greatly lower lift, increase drag, and greatly increase landing speed.

 

  Likewise for wings being damaged (haven't seen the condition of the aircraft being mentioned earlier) but planes can and HAVE flown with large sections of their wings sheered off, especially if it is a lifting body design. If it's one wing this induces a roll, but not necessarily uncontrollable. If it's both wings then it cancels itself out and the plane is effectively flying with reduced lift.

 

  Whether a plane can fly or not is ENTIRELY down to whether there is sufficient lift (in some cases simply increasing speed can compensate for this) and whether or not it is controllable. There are NUMEROUS examples of aircraft flying with folded or damaged/missing wings.

 

 

 

With wings folded the control movement is seriously degraded and the pilots approach speed is significantly higher. Eject would be the most likely be the only solution. As a test pilot you would reduce velocity first at low altitude into a near stall and then punch out in a safe area. Everyone hates ejecting.

[Mars Exulte]

On 10/16/2021 at 2:47 PM, SUBS17 said:

With wings folded the control movement is seriously degraded and the pilots approach speed is significantly higher.

  Agreed.

On 10/16/2021 at 2:47 PM, SUBS17 said:

Eject would be the most likely be the only solution.

  Eject is considered safest, yes.

On 10/16/2021 at 2:47 PM, SUBS17 said:

As a test pilot you would reduce velocity first at low altitude into a near stall and then punch out in a safe area. Everyone hates ejecting.

  These were not tests, there were multiple cases of planes accidentally launching with folded wings from carriers (how that many people managed to NOT catch it beforehand, who knows). I don't know about every case, but in at least some of them the plane was safely recovered, I believe in one or two they even landed on the carrier they launched from.

[Majesco]

On 9/30/2021 at 12:57 AM, Foka said:

You can even take off with wings folded (at least you could, I didn't do it for a long time)

I sometimes fly the Hornet with wings folded + weapons under pylons and doing maneuver, that's great

Take-off without catapult is possible with F-14 + 2 fuel tanks & missile, need to start running from bottom of the carrier ( and avoid to collide other parking planes) . I always do that on John C Stennis with some static aircrafts on the deck for fun, deck crew also won't work in that case. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Majesco

[dbarak]

A couple of somewhat related things.

I know a former E-2 pilot who said that for carrier qualifications they'd fly with just the pilot and copilot and with a fairly light fuel load. They'd trap then taxi back to the ramp and do a deck run to get airborne again. Easier than a cat shot.

I also know a former Phantom pilot and he one time had a mission to do a zoom climb, just a test of some sort. He and his RIO were outfitted with pressure suits. I can't remember how hight they managed to get. Anyway, he said that on the way down the outer portion of one wing broke off, but with enough roll trim they were able to fly without too much problem.