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All Warbirds bounce regardless of how soft you touch down for a wheel landing.


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16 minutes ago, Mogster said:


What I see there are pilots using a long runway to tip toe onto the ground with minimum sink rate. It looks like they are really trying hard to avoid bouncing. Most of the bouncy landings people video from DCS have much larger sink rates than that. Most of the guys flying real warbirds are very skilled.

You're not getting the picture man, that is an extreme slope landing, very difficult. If you have a slope gradient of only 3 degrees, you would be descending around 500 FPM to match the gradient (ie never touching down if the runway went for ever). So the sight picture for touch down is going to be wildly different for these guys, not to mention, that the aircraft is going to touch down on the slope at a different attitude in relation to the ground (more nose up) which will increase the bouncing tendency. Also, a lot of these guys flying the Warbirds actually have fairly low time respectively. Flying warbirds is expensive as hell, and all of the guys are just volunteers and probably only fly 10 or so hours a month. Not to say they aren't skilled, but I bet most are fairly low time relatively speaking and don’t have near the proficiency the OG WWII pilots had. Also they’re just skipping mostly, with exception to the one Spitfire, which aren’t really an issue, theyre not what I would call a bounce.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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As somebody already mentioned, I believe you're being tricked by the lack of feeling being in front of a screen, VR in the best case scenario. Don't know what your experience in simulation is, but I've sat a friend of mine, AG pilot very used to high power taildraggers, in my PC and he couldn't fly the thing either, it's too much of a difference from a RL pilot's POV seeking for the seat of his pants feeling to counter with the controls, but there are no feeling at all here, it's all subtle visual references when not plain faith just because you know things happens whether you see them or not.

 

S!

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5 hours ago, Hawkeye91 said:

That's not the best example as they are wheel landing on quite a steep decline gradient (landing. downhill) and those are quite minor skips, not so much of "bounced" landing.

Here's a better example. 

19:40 you can see a good Mosquito wheel landing. You can't touch down with that much sink rate in the DCS mosquito and not bounce.

 

 

 

The video looks spot on from what I am experiencing in DCS.

 

Btw. isn't DCS Mosquito wheel suspension still WIP?

 

Quote

 

According to Eagle Dynamics the roadmap for phase 2 includes the following:

  • Operator’s AI for multi-crew
  • Tire and shock absorber dynamics
  • Operable drift recorder device
  • Engine failures
  • Fire-extinguishers
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  • More liveries

 

 

Source: https://stormbirds.blog/2021/09/18/dcs-mosquito-first-impression-review/

 

4 hours ago, DefaultFace said:

More nose down trim than normal definitely helps for 2 point landings in dcs. Thats how I was originally taught to do it in the 109. You trim full nose down so you need some back pressure to hold level flight & flare, look at the horizon over the nose as you touch down & centre the stick once the wheels are on.

 

Seconded. The biggest change for me back when I was learning the Mustang and how to do 2 point landings was to actually push forward on the stick as in order for the wheels to stick to the ground upon touchdown. This can be circumvented by having a nose down trim so you don't have to think about it.

 

All this was and still is way different from other flight sims that I've tried.

 

 


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20 hours ago, Hawkeye91 said:

Yeah that's kinda my point, in real draggers you some times get little skips if you touch down a little firm, which are a minor occurrence and typically after 1 little skip of like 1 foot or less vertical, you are slow enough that it won't happen again, in DCS it seems like you are either down or you get an extreme bounce up 20' in the air and float it for another 1000' and not much middle ground or nuance. 

 

I get what you mean, but I wonder if you wouldn't be able to make you point clearer by comparing the rate of climb just before landing with the rate of climb your seeing at touchdown?

 

I think the problem has less to do with the suspension of your landing gear, and more to do with the tail dropping.

 

If the idea is to see how well this is modeled in DCS, couldn't you check it by pulling back on the stick just before touchdown to compare it with your rate of climb after the bounce? If you can duplicate your planes weight, speed, angle, and rate of drop, your rate of climb when you pull back on the stick just before touchdown should be close to what you are seeing in the bounce if DCS is modeled right.

 

A wheel landing is like reversing the steps used to take-off, while a 3-point landing skips over one of the steps. I have seen a number of videos that show landings (wheel/3-point) without bouncing, but also wonder if the bounce/skip that you also often see isn't exaggerated a little in DCS.

 

 

19 hours ago, Hawkeye91 said:

You're not getting the picture man, that is an extreme slope landing, very difficult. If you have a slope gradient of only 3 degrees, you would be descending around 500 FPM to match the gradient (ie never touching down if the runway went for ever). So the sight picture for touch down is going to be wildly different for these guys, not to mention, that the aircraft is going to touch down on the slope at a different attitude in relation to the ground (more nose up) which will increase the bouncing tendency. Also, a lot of these guys flying the Warbirds actually have fairly low time respectively. Flying warbirds is expensive as hell, and all of the guys are just volunteers and probably only fly 10 or so hours a month. Not to say they aren't skilled, but I bet most are fairly low time relatively speaking and don’t have near the proficiency the OG WWII pilots had. Also they’re just skipping mostly, with exception to the one Spitfire, which aren’t really an issue, theyre not what I would call a bounce.

 

Its not only sloping down, but the field is not level either. So there are little ups and downs (bumps) as the general slope of the grade is dropping.


Edited by Callsign112
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On the topic of 2-point technique, one thing I don't see mentioned is an explanation of how to flare to reduce sinkrate without increasing AoA. Every time I try a 2-point landing I end up in a 3-point instead because of the increased AoA when I reduce the sinkrate. 

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23 minutes ago, Nealius said:

On the topic of 2-point technique, one thing I don't see mentioned is an explanation of how to flare to reduce sinkrate without increasing AoA. Every time I try a 2-point landing I end up in a 3-point instead because of the increased AoA when I reduce the sinkrate. 

 

Fly faster so you dont need as much AoA to produce lift and stop sinkrate. 

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Just had a SpitCW flight and almost got a 2-point. I didn't react fast enough on the stick to keep the tail up. 

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1 hour ago, razo+r said:

 

Fly faster so you dont need as much AoA to produce lift and stop sinkrate. 

Yeah.  I don't know how it's done in rl, but in DCS I need over 120mph ias with the P-51 to do a wheel landing, and it also helps to trim nose down.  ymmv

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17 hours ago, gortex said:

Yeah.  I don't know how it's done in rl, but in DCS I need over 120mph ias with the P-51 to do a wheel landing, and it also helps to trim nose down.  ymmv

You cant just choose AoA, speed at touch down is different when doing 3 point or wheel landing. 

3 point touch down will be done at speed near stall speed in case P-51 it will be around 90-100 mph

Wheel landing will be done at much higher speed.

You can't 3 point P-51 at 120 mph because at this speed and AoA needed for 3 point P-51 will climb, provided that P-51 is low on fuel and configured for landing.

3 point landing is often done that front wheels hit ground first, so they can absorb major of the force, if you go in too high AoA at touch down you can hit ground with tail wheel first and this is not good.

This is how i do it.

 


Edited by grafspee
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Some people dont have the knowledge,  dont have the skills and didnt read the post, didnt understand the post BUT commenting! Tagging another as a reference to their video and the video maker even point out their lack of understanding and yet they r commenting! Thats so funny and frustrating!

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1 hour ago, Raviar said:

Some people dont have the knowledge,  dont have the skills and didnt read the post, didnt understand the post BUT commenting! Tagging another as a reference to their video and the video maker even point out their lack of understanding and yet they r commenting! Thats so funny and frustrating!

 

Oh, so sorry to offend my liege, please, your honour, grace us, the great ignorant unwashed, with the golden glow of your wisdom. Please, enlighten us wretched souls.

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On 9/25/2021 at 7:42 PM, DefaultFace said:

More nose down trim than normal definitely helps for 2 point landings in dcs. Thats how I was originally taught to do it in the 109. You trim full nose down so you need some back pressure to hold level flight & flare, look at the horizon over the nose as you touch down & centre the stick once the wheels are on.

I also use a touch of nose down trim for the wheel landings in DCS

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Here are two no-bounce wheel landings I just scraped together with about 10 minutes practice, in the Spitfire and 109.
Took me 3 attempts to get it right in the spitfire (which I have not flown for ages) and 2 attempts in the 109 (which I fly quite a bit at the moment).

It would be even easier with:
1. more headwind -  this is set to just 2m/s
2. lighter aircraft with less fuel and ammo

Wheel landings are safer in combat too, having the extra power on (and air/ ground speed) when landing makes it easier to go around - which might be necessary if the base is under threat.
 

 


Edited by philstyle
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Great landings there Phil 👏.

 

It took me a bit of practice either the time I tried myself to learn time ago. After I got it I liked to keep stick forward so tail up all the time possible since that makes the landing run even shorter, but it takes even more practice and sometimes the aircraft gets temperamental doing that for too long 🤣.


Definitely possible, no bounces at all, as IRL you bounce because too high speed, both forward airspeed and vertical speed. Once you get the right spot it's easy peasy, until that you manage to invoke all demons in hell for a while.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar
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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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There’s really not a lot of damping in the suspension. Any sort of vertical speed or rough surface and bouncing starts quite easily, as it does in DCS. Suspension is absolutely minimal to save weight.

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11 hours ago, philstyle said:

Here are two no-bounce wheel landings I just scraped together with about 10 minutes practice, in the Spitfire and 109.
Took me 3 attempts to get it right in the spitfire (which I have not flown for ages) and 2 attempts in the 109 (which I fly quite a bit at the moment).

It would be even easier with:
1. more headwind -  this is set to just 2m/s
2. lighter aircraft with less fuel and ammo

Wheel landings are safer in combat too, having the extra power on (and air/ ground speed) when landing makes it easier to go around - which might be necessary if the base is under threat.
 

 

 

Nicely done!

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Another bumpy landing, it is not easy to do smooth landings.

 


Edited by grafspee
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I've finally figured it out in the Spit as well. I don't touch trim once configured, so when the mains touch the pavement all I have to do is ease off the back pressure to keep the tail up. I only keep it up for about 2~3 seconds, but I don't see much reason to leave it up any longer other than for bragging rights.

 

There's a dirty joke somewhere in my phrasing there....

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What worked for me to train out the bounce in the warbirds was to just practice, practice, practice touch-n-goes on the main wheels till I got the feel of lightly touching down and reducing or increasing the throttle depending on what I wanted to do. If you bounce you might be too slow when touching down. Sudden decrease in lift from the wings at the same time as touch down combined with the slowing of the aircraft when the wheels touch and cause more drag.

 

Not a lot of help but... there's nothing wrong with the sim IMO. Not a real pilot but the experience seems "plausible" when making allowances for desktop grade physical interface hardware.

 

 

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