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All Warbirds bounce regardless of how soft you touch down for a wheel landing.


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I've flown tail draggers IRL and flown many tail dragger aircraft in other simulators and DCS warbirds are the only ones I can't wheel land without getting a bounce. I find even if I touch down with the tiniest amount of sink rate to get the wheels on the ground, I still get a bounce, albeit a small one, but it shouldn't be the case.

 

Bounces occur during wheel landings when you touch down with too high of a sink rate. The high sink rate causes the tail to drop due to momentum which in turn increases in the AoA of the aircraft and it starts flying again.

 

What appears to be missing is the torque effect of wheel friction drag of coming in contact with the ground. The deceleration torque affect would cancel out the tendency for the tail to drop on a wheel landing as long as sink rate isn't excessive. Currently, it feels like this balance doesn't exist and touching down at all, always results in a bounce, even if only slightly.

 

3 point landings on the other hand feel accurate and very nice. I'd just like for the ability to do wheel landings as I prefer them for crosswind landings, you tend to have more rudder effectiveness with a wheel landing and reduce the chances of a ground loop with a crosswind landing. (Yes I know this is a topic of religion among tail dragger pilots)

 

Here's a video I made in a different simulator flying a Beaver (Yes I know I screwed up the thumbnail and put DHC-3) for comparison. 

 

 

I'd like to be able to do that with Warbirds, I've yet to get a wheel landing to work like this in DCS though.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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4 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

If you bounce, youve come in too hard, or with a speed thats too high..

A non bounce landing is easy with thorough practice.


I'm not talking about landing, I'm talking about WHEEL landings, please read the post before commenting. If you don't know, a wheel landing is a landing on the front main wheels only of a conventional gear aircraft. Wheel landings inherently carry a little more speed and power on landing to keep the tail off the ground on touch down, because if you come in slow, you'll 3 point land it which is fine, but no the goal of what I'm trying to achieve. Each technique has advantages and disadvantages, and is often a topic of religion among tail dragger pilots which is better, but I like to be able to do both.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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Just now, Hawkeye91 said:


I'm not talking about landing, I'm talking about WHEEL landings, please read the post before commenting. If you don't know, a wheel landing is a landing on the front main wheels only of a conventional gear aircraft. Wheel landings inherently carry a little more speed and power on landing to keep the tail of the ground on touch down, because if you come in slow, you'll 3 point land it which is fine, but no the goal of what I'm trying to achieve. Each technique has advantages and disadvantages, and is often a topic of religion among tail dragger pilots which is better, but I like to be able to do both.


See my post above.. I know what you meant..

 

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1 minute ago, StevanJ said:


See my post above.. I know what you meant..

 

if you knew what I meant then you'd realize that in warbird aircraft is all but impossible to wheel land the warbirds without bouncing, as I've said, I've touched down with near zero sink rate. Like <10FPM and it still bounces. It should not bounce that easily on a wheel landing and as I've said, you didn't read my post because you'd realize that I've done these landings in real life (I have a tail dragger endorsement and you have to learn both landing techniques to get it) and in other sims and Warbirds are the only ones that are this impossible to not bounce, so something seems off, which the missing toque effect of deceleration when rubber meets ground would cancel out that little tail down tendency on touchdown. Its not as simple as "too fast, too hard = bounce" because I wasn't either of them in my testing of various warbirds.

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I can wheel land every plane in dcs. Only p47 seems almost impossible to wheel land it. I dont have as much hours on p47 as on other warbirds. 

@StevanJ this old topic is about 3 point landing. Wheel landing is to land on 2 wheels with tail rised up, often used fot touch and go practise


Edited by grafspee
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2 minutes ago, grafspee said:

I can wheel land every plane in dcs. Only p47 seems almost impossible to wheel land it. I dont have as much hours on p47 as on other warbirds


Ive watched your videos man, Youve got some very serious skills..
Keep up the good work..

Check this landing out..

 

 


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7 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

So you asked this before, and @grafspee uploaded you a video to show you its possible..
 

 

 

If you watch that video, he 3 pointed that landing, that wasn't a wheel landing. He touched down at the same attitude as the roll out. So no, he hasn't show me its possible. I've tried wheel landings on every warbird I own (109, 190A, P47, Mosquito) and they all bounce on a wheel landings. 


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1 minute ago, Hawkeye91 said:

If you watch that video, he 3 pointed that landing, that wasn't a wheel landing. He touched down at the same attitude as the roll out. So no, he hasn't show me its possible. I've tried wheel landings on every warbird I own (109, 190A, P47, Mosquito) and they all bounce on a wheel landings. 

 

I can do wheel landing on spitfire, p51,bf 109 those are very easy i would say. Fw190 mor tricky and p47 didnt managed yet. But i saw ppl doing that. If you cant wheel land spitfire you need some practise then. Spit is the easiest one to wheel it

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Quote

Seriously just go through his videos and stop having a defeatist attitude..

Practice x

I believe in you..

I'm not being defeatist, I'm saying there's something off about the physics of landing these aircraft that they are too unforgiving for bounces on wheel landings. I literally touched down on the mains in the Mosquito yesterday, with near zero FPM and it skipped right off the runway. I was below approach speed, I wasn't looking at the airspeed but I was 120 MPH on approach when I started rounding out and reducing throttle, I touched down with less sink rate then that video of the Spitfire you edited into your post, so low of a sink rate, it was almost imperceptible, and the plane still skipped off the runway a few feet, back into the air. I'm not home, so I can't upload the track file otherwise I would.

 

And I've noticed this in all of the other warbirds too as they all seem like they have this extreme tendency to drop the tail with little to no sink rate, and send the plane flying again.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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Sink rate is not only thing, you have to feel the plane and control tail with stick. 


Edited by grafspee

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2 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Sink rate is not only thing, you have to feel the plane and control tail with stick.

uh, it really is the only thing concerning bounces atm. Other than not pulling back on the stick on touchdown, there's not really much else you can do to influence bounce tendencies other than just being on airspeed and at a normal approach angle. Which I have been. I can grease all of these planes on for a 3 point landing no problem, and here's the quote from the FAA's airplane flying handbook. 

Quote

NOTE: The only difference between three-point and wheel landings is the timing of the touchdown (early and later). There is no difference between the approach angles and airspeeds in the two techniques.

 

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For approach yes nothing changes but final flare before touch is completely difrent.


Edited by grafspee

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1 hour ago, StevanJ said:


Ive watched your videos man, Youve got some very serious skills..
Keep up the good work..

Check this landing out..

 

 

 


Also look at this, here's why the spitfire doesn't bounce

image.png

 

The Spitfire's CG is right above the mains gear, so when it touches down, you'll have almost no tail down tendency, where as most warbirds have a CG aft of the main gear:

image.png

Having that CG aft of the main gear will increase the bounce tendency of aircraft which I'm guessing is why you don't see the same results in our Spitfire, but as I said, the drag of deceleration on touch down creates a torque effect that would raise the tail a little to counter that aft CG tail down tendency on landing. Especially for a plane like the Mosquito with big fat tires and lower tire pressure. It should tons of wheel friction drag. Also with the tail being made out of wood, it would be extremely light and have little momentum force on touch down compared to metal birds.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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17 minutes ago, Mogster said:

These aircraft seem to bounce easily in RL. 

 

 

That's not the best example as they are wheel landing on quite a steep decline gradient (landing. downhill) and those are quite minor skips, not so much of "bounced" landing.

Here's a better example. 

19:40 you can see a good Mosquito wheel landing. You can't touch down with that much sink rate in the DCS mosquito and not bounce.


Edited by Hawkeye91
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Even though this is now a 7 year old video, it still applies:
 

 

 

While not having any tail dragger stick time in real planes (apart from 1h in Cessna 172 years back) I will say that I love how DCS models wheel landings. If done right the wheels will just stick to the ground with suspension doing its thing.

 

Then again, not sure how realistic this is compared to the real WWII birds flying today as again I have no stick time in real tail draggers.

 

Btw. I even managed to do it in a 109 after some practice.

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Its doable, Ive done it many times in the 109, Mustang and even in the Spit and 190s as well. There is some tendency to bounce but as some people have mentioned it comes from the arrangement of the wheels in relation to the cg. Whether its overmodelled or not is hard to say, but I do get the impression that at least some of this comes from the reduced "feel" & sensitivity of flying a virtual airplane on a screen or in VR as compared to being a real flying & moving airplane.

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5 minutes ago, DefaultFace said:

Its doable, Ive done it many times in the 109, Mustang and even in the Spit and 190s as well. There is some tendency to bounce but as some people have mentioned it comes from the arrangement of the wheels in relation to the cg. Whether its overmodelled or not is hard to say, but I do get the impression that at least some of this comes from the reduced "feel" & sensitivity of flying a virtual airplane on a screen or in VR as compared to being a real flying & moving airplane.

Yeah that's kinda my point, in real draggers you some times get little skips if you touch down a little firm, which are a minor occurrence and typically after 1 little skip of like 1 foot or less vertical, you are slow enough that it won't happen again, in DCS it seems like you are either down or you get an extreme bounce up 20' in the air and float it for another 1000' and not much middle ground or nuance. 


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1 minute ago, DefaultFace said:

Its doable, Ive done it many times in the 109, Mustang and even in the Spit and 190s as well. There is some tendency to bounce but as some people have mentioned it comes from the arrangement of the wheels in relation to the cg. Whether its overmodelled or not is hard to say, but I do get the impression that at least some of this comes from the reduced "feel" & sensitivity of flying a virtual airplane on a screen or in VR as compared to being a real flying & moving airplane.

Agree. And this is not first time when gaming hardware get in the way. For example already famous pitch sensitivity of spitfire.

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5 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Agree. And this is not first time when gaming hardware get in the way. For example already famous pitch sensitivity of spitfire.

 

Trim is everything with DCS Spitfire. I properly trimmed, she flies as if on rails.

 

Speaking of hardware, yeah - having a stick extension does help a lot. Or dialing some curves if on a desktop setup.

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye91 said:

That's not the best example as they are wheel landing on quite a steep decline gradient (landing. downhill) and those are quite minor skips, not so much of "bounced" landing.

Here's a better example. 

19:40 you can see a good Mosquito wheel landing. You can't touch down with that much sink rate in the DCS mosquito and not bounce.

 


What I see there are pilots using a long runway to tip toe onto the ground with minimum sink rate. It looks like they are really trying hard to avoid bouncing. Most of the bouncy landings people video from DCS have much larger sink rates than that. Most of the guys flying real warbirds are very skilled.

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More nose down trim than normal definitely helps for 2 point landings in dcs. Thats how I was originally taught to do it in the 109. You trim full nose down so you need some back pressure to hold level flight & flare, look at the horizon over the nose as you touch down & centre the stick once the wheels are on.

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"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

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