How good are the Apache's optic sensors?

[blower]

So I've recently been looking into videos of Apache in action, I find the amoun of zoom and overall quality of the image pretty amazing, I'd like to know, specially from people with actual experience with it, where would you place it in the NIIRS scale.

[StevanJ]

About a 7..

[jubuttib]

"NIIRS Level 7

  

NIIRS 7 Criteria
Detect individual steps on a stairway.
Detect stumps and rocks in forest clearings and meadows."

 

Sounds a bit low? And to what distance is this supposed to apply to?

 

Am I misunderstanding NIIRS completely? To me it seems like it's more about rating final images rather than an imaging system, since nothing in the scales relates to at what distance you're taking images. Pretty sure the Apache cameras can do a 9 from like less than 100 meters away?

 

"NIIRS Level 9

  

NIIRS 9 Criteria
Identify individual grain heads on small grain (e.g., wheat, oats, barley).
Identify individual barbs on a barbed wire fence.
Detect individual spikes in railroad ties."

[Wags]

Ah, NIIRS, brings back memories of my old NPIC days.

[AvroLanc]

14 minutes ago, Wags said:

Ah, NIIRS, brings back memories of my old NPIC days.

 

Is that some CIA spookiness we shouldn't ask about? Image analysis?

[Hummingbird]

For anyone wondering: https://irp.fas.org/imint/niirs.htm

[Hummingbird]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

"NIIRS Level 7

  

NIIRS 7 Criteria
Detect individual steps on a stairway.
Detect stumps and rocks in forest clearings and meadows."

 

Sounds a bit low? And to what distance is this supposed to apply to?

 

Am I misunderstanding NIIRS completely? To me it seems like it's more about rating final images rather than an imaging system, since nothing in the scales relates to at what distance you're taking images. Pretty sure the Apache cameras can do a 9 from like less than 100 meters away?

 

"NIIRS Level 9

  

NIIRS 9 Criteria
Identify individual grain heads on small grain (e.g., wheat, oats, barley).
Identify individual barbs on a barbed wire fence.
Detect individual spikes in railroad ties."

 

Yeah, it obviously depends on the distance. I think the 64D uses 2nd generation FLIR sensors, so it should be quite high resolution out to a long distance.

[Gierasimov]

19 hours ago, Wags said:

Ah, NIIRS, brings back memories of my old NPIC days.

National Photographic Interpretation Center?

[_mu110_]

Optics evidently not good enough to tell whether someone is an insurgent with an RPG or a reporter with a camera from about 1000 meters. 

 

 

[MRTX]

Lul, nevertheless that dude was peeking around the corner and taking what seems to be a shooting stance. And if we keep in mind that the Apaches were called in for TIC and advised that friendlies were taking fire from the location they were looking at, i can't blame them for misinterpreting the situation. If i were in their situation with that pucker factor i would've lit up that dude faster than i could think.

[jubuttib]

On 9/25/2021 at 2:47 AM, Hummingbird said:

 

Yeah, it obviously depends on the distance. I think the 64D uses 2nd generation FLIR sensors, so it should be quite high resolution out to a long distance.

So... Is the question somewhat non-sensical? If range/distance isn't defined anywhere, can you put the system as a whole on the scale? Specific footage, sure.

[Harlikwin]

The thing with NIIRS is that its basically talking just about the image and nothing else. I.e. from how far away it was taken. You can have your cell phone provide NIIRS level 7 or 9 images, you are just quite close. A satellite making those images, well, thats impressive for example. So unless you are comparing apples to apples with same range a met conditions its not really useful metric.

 

[Harlikwin]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:44 AM, _mu110_ said:

Optics evidently not good enough to tell whether someone is an insurgent with an RPG or a reporter with a camera from about 1000 meters. 

 

 

 

Ouch. 

[Hummingbird]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:41 PM, jubuttib said:

So... Is the question somewhat non-sensical? If range/distance isn't defined anywhere, can you put the system as a whole on the scale? Specific footage, sure.

 

Kind of yeah, it would be better to for example say NIIRS 7 at 2 km.

[Eldur]

On 9/25/2021 at 1:40 AM, Hummingbird said:

For anyone wondering: https://irp.fas.org/imint/niirs.htm

 

That page literally is NIIRS 0 when running Dark Reader. Coincidence?

 

Spoiler

 

When I disabled it for that site, the 90s called and wanted their HTML 3.2 back

 

That font size though, reminds me of the folded novels that come with pills. What level of NIIRS would that be? 5/7

 

On 9/25/2021 at 6:44 PM, _mu110_ said:

Optics evidently not good enough to tell whether someone is an insurgent with an RPG or a reporter with a camera from about 1000 meters.

 

Could have been a trombone as well...

 

Video is locked behind a "We need your ID card or you shall not pass" wall since they don't accept my credit card data (which they already had) because it's prepaid (did this for a reason, being on the internet...). Not gonna give that to Google. I guess I know the footage though.

 

Anyway, learnt something new here. And this definately is an interesting topic, as it boils down to sensor resolution and optical zoom factors which has been discussed in the past with other optical sensors, especially after Heatblur dropping their pixelated and apparently more realistic LANTIRN.

[Enduro14]

Yup more environmental effects on optics is greatly needed in dcs....

[Harlikwin]

31 minutes ago, Enduro14 said:

Yup more environmental effects on optics is greatly needed in dcs....

 

Not to mention better differentiation between sensor resolutions/optic FOV etc.