Jump to content

Apache Datalink


baksie
 Share

Recommended Posts

So will the Apache have a data link and how will it work? Similar to the KA 50 ?

  • Like 1

Intel I7-10700K, Samsung 980 Pro 2TB NVMe, MSI Z490 ACE, RAM:64GB DDR4 3600, WIN 10-64, 1080Ti😩

 

Waiting on a good RTX

 

A10C-II-F16-FA18-F14-NV-PG-Syria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More or less. Kinda like emailing target points, instead of live SPI broadcasting like the A-10 SADL.

 

No clue what the ED implementation of it will be like though.

  • Like 1

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

  • Like 1

Win-10 x64

 

Nvidia RTX2080 (HP Reverb)

Asus Prime X570P

AMD 3800x

32GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

 

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals

Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

Pretty sure D-Models don't have L16, but I think he's talking about Longbow

Just read your comment again, because army probably is an accurate statement. 


Edited by kgillers3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

The AH-64D doesnt use Link 16, it uses IDM. The IDM it uses is quite a bit different than the F-16 IDM though.

  • Like 1

______________________________________________

Specs

 

CPU i9 9900k

GPU RTX 2080TI

MOBO Asus Z390-E

RAM 32GB Trident z RGB 3200MHz

PSU Evga 750w g5

SSD Samsung 860 Evo 500gb/Samsung 970 Evo Plus 1tb

________________________________________________

Setup

Thrustmaster Warthog, Trackir 5 with pro clip, MFG Crosswinds,Thrustmaster MFDs, and 3 Monitor

 

________________________________________________

Modules

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, M1Combat said:

Isn't it a 2008 bird???  Why wouldn't it use Link16??  Because it's army probably??

 

Only AH-64E's have Link16, and that only started being equipped several years ago. Link16 is a joint/NATO datalink system, and up until the past decade the Army wasn't as focused on joint interoperability at that level for Attack Aviation.

 

According to Wags' cockpit controls PDF he posted on the forums a while back, it's a 2005-2010 avionics version, not specifically 2008. And based on the equipment seen installed on the aircraft in the videos, it fits that timeframe.

  • Like 1

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AH-64D don't use LINK16 for datalink, Only AH-64E Version 4s and onwards iirc got LINK16

 

the AH-64D has 3 Datalinks

  • AFAPD or Air Force Applications Program Development (longbow protocol), JVMF or Joint Variable Message Format (tactical Internet or Fire support) And Tacfire
     
    Heres an image of the LINK16 antenna on the AH-64E

image_2021-09-23_172221.png


Edited by Yuto
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarifications :).

Win-10 x64

 

Nvidia RTX2080 (HP Reverb)

Asus Prime X570P

AMD 3800x

32GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

 

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals

Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

I7 4790K / EVGA 1080ti SC / 32GB DDR3 / 1TB SSD / Oculus Rift S / X-56 / MFG Crosswind V2 / ButtKicker + Simshaker for Aviators

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Gunrun_KS said:

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

I'm not sure that the kiowa and ah talked through the system i'm thinking of, but could absolutely be wrong, and LOBL and LOAL should be laser handoffs 🤷‍♂️

 

Or remotes for people who get caught up on terms. 


Edited by kgillers3
more accurate statement so people don't yell at me later.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Gunrun_KS said:

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

 

The Kiowa and Apache both use coded lasers like the A-10, F-16, F-18 and such. However, from my understanding the Kiowa would be like a LANTIRN-equipped F-14 in that it has a designator, but no laser spot tracker, whereas the AH-64 does have a laser spot tracker. So the 64 could designate targets for the Kiowa's Hellfire missiles, but would have to verbally tell the Kiowa where the target is via talk-on or coordinate readback.

 

There was an older system that allowed 64s and 58s to send/receive targets over a "datalink", but that system was rarely used, plus that would require 3 assumptions to function:

1) ED models it in the AH-64

2) Polychop models it in the OH-58

3) They've both configured the multiplayer coding in their respective modules to talk to each other to achieve the compatibility when players are online.


Edited by Raptor9
  • Like 2

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2021 at 7:24 AM, Gunrun_KS said:

I'm wondering if we will be able to use the Kiowa/Apache to hand-off targets to each other and use LOBL and LOAL modes like the good ol' days.

Both the Kiowa and Apache use JVMF and TACFIRE, iirc it also has a target handover system ( TACFIRE ATHS, airborne Target Handover System)

 

TACFIRE was supposed to be the artillery datalink, which KW had in the form of ATHS (Airborne Target Handover System). Never came to practical use. Succeeded by JVMF (Joint Variable Message Format). Also never used for "real world" digital fires.

Both Apache and Kiowa can LOAL and LOBL.

 

so it could happen but that is if Polychop and ED work together to make it work, its not an easy system to implement the JVMF and the TACFIRE system is a very complex system, i see it happening since it would add more capability to the Kiowa but it might take time, plus the Kiowa is releasing in a complete State so it might already have the TACFIRE ATHS and JVMF both implemented, which would leave ED to work with Polychop to implement it for MP and SP.


Edited by Yuto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

I'd be excited if this were true!

Cheers,

Morat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Morat said:

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Nope

36 minutes ago, Morat said:

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

Completely different types unfortunately and not compatible, not even through a "bridge" asset.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, the datalink/IDM is only available to talk to other Longbows. There’s a few networks you can connect to….but I believe the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet is the most important. It allows you to send and receive a bunch of stuff to fellow Longbow Apaches…..waypoints, routes, target points, FCR targets, PFZs, No fire Zones etc. Also free text messages. 
 

There’s also the ability to use ATHS and TACFIRE networks, but I believe these are purely used to call in air/artillery fire support and also link with observation Kiowas. Don’t know how much use these features had in real life. Heard different things about that. ED will probably omit these bits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet

The Longbow datalink and Tactical Internet are two different things.


Edited by Raptor9

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The Longbow and Tactical Internet are two different things.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. 

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, AvroLanc said:

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

Like most things in the military, it depends. Different situations, different techniques.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Morat said:

well that sucks, c'mon USA - sort it out! 😄

I guess I'll just follow the smoke and lend a hand where I can!

LST, it's gonna grab 1 of 2 places


Edited by kgillers3
grammar. important
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good information guys.  Besides working with these bad boys in RL.  My knowledge is limited to LB2 😄

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

I7 4790K / EVGA 1080ti SC / 32GB DDR3 / 1TB SSD / Oculus Rift S / X-56 / MFG Crosswind V2 / ButtKicker + Simshaker for Aviators

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

No, the datalink/IDM is only available to talk to other Longbows. There’s a few networks you can connect to….but I believe the Longbow TI, or Tactical Internet is the most important. It allows you to send and receive a bunch of stuff to fellow Longbow Apaches…..waypoints, routes, target points, FCR targets, PFZs, No fire Zones etc. Also free text messages. 
 

There’s also the ability to use ATHS and TACFIRE networks, but I believe these are purely used to call in air/artillery fire support and also link with observation Kiowas. Don’t know how much use these features had in real life. Heard different things about that. ED will probably omit these bits.

FYI the TACFIRE-ATHS has been removed from the E and iirc the late D versions of the Apache it was obsolete back in 2005, it was a shitty system just from reading about it u can tell its useless.

the Kiowas dont or barely use the TACFIRE-ATHS and JVMF (Tactical internet) systems for whatever reason the Kiowas used comms to communicate with other assets and apaches this was explained by a Kiowa pilot in the Polychop server they just never or barely used the datalinks, the apaches used the JVMF system regularly, this is part of the reason why the Kiowa got retired, apache did its job better and more effectively, TACFIRE was Obsolete hence why it got removed from the Es, LINK16 replaced TACFIRE on the Echos, they still use JVMF and the AFAPD (longbow protocol).

THE JVMF can also call in Artillery using the FS protocol 

19 hours ago, Morat said:

Will it be possible for Apache and A-10C2 to datalink to each other?

Does it go as far as being in the same network group on the TAD on the A10?

I'd be excited if this were true!

Cheers,

Morat

A-10C2s had 0 Datalinks to share with the Apache, if u want to talk with a fixed wing u use comms this is with the D version of the apache, Echos like i said got LINK16 so they have an easier job sharing info with other aircraft that use LINK16

17 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. 

Are you able to expand at all? Was the datalink generally a big thing for everyday employment? Or did voice and LST/Visual talkon type techniques still rule?

the Longbow Protocol Datalink isn't the JVMF (Tactical internet) its 2 Different Datalinks, ive heard from a Pilot that they used the JVMF when Radio silence is a thing so instead of using the Radio to talk with the other Apaches they use JVMF to send messages back and forth, it depends on the situation that u are in  

17 hours ago, Morat said:

well that sucks, c'mon USA - sort it out! 😄

I guess I'll just follow the smoke and lend a hand where I can!

LST, Smoke and Comms is what u should rely on when talking with other Fixed wing units 


Edited by Yuto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, there are number of inaccuracies with that post.  Not trying to be a jerk, but there are.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

this is part of the reason why the Kiowa got retired, apache did its job better and more effectively

Negative. The Apache requires more resources and logistics (parts, manpower, money, fuel, etc) to accomplish the same mission as the Kiowa.  The Kiowa was divested to remove an entire aircraft from the Army inventory because of DoD fiscal limitations at the time, and because the Army acquisitions process failed multiple times in a row to replace the Kiowa Warrior with an armed scout helicopter.  Not for technical or doctrinal reasons, but because the acquisitions process itself failed.  This is part of the reasons why they are trying again with FARA.

Can the Apache do the armed reconnaissance mission? Yes.  Can it do it as well or better than the Kiowa? No.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

TACFIRE was Obsolete hence why it got removed from the Es, LINK16 replaced TACFIRE on the Echos

TACFIRE was divested in ~2012 from 64D's, it was never in 64E's.  Link16 didn't replace any existing datalink protocol, it was an addition to the Apache toolkit to improve joint interoperability on the modern battlefield.

3 hours ago, Yuto said:

THE JVMF can also call in Artillery using the FS protocol 

A-10C2s had 0 Datalinks to share with the Apache, if u want to talk with a fixed wing u use comms this is with the D version of the apache, Echos like i said got LINK16 so they have an easier job sharing info with other aircraft that use LINK16

the Longbow Protocol Datalink isn't the JVMF (Tactical internet) its 2 Different Datalinks, ive heard from a Pilot that they used the JVMF when Radio silence is a thing so instead of using the Radio to talk with the other Apaches they use JVMF to send messages back and forth, it depends on the situation that u are in 

Not quite an accurate breakdown of how all the terms inter-relate to each other, but a roll-up to be more explicit:

DCS A-10C uses SADL, which is not compatible with any model of Apache, D or E.  There are some discussions on the forums on whether an AWACS or other such asset could act as a bridge between Link16 and SADL, allowing exchange of tracks or other data across those links, but nothing that can be verified using unclassified, open source information.  Having said that, real-world A-10C's are currently being fitted with Link16 terminals as well so they can integrate with other platforms, but the DCS A-10C (both versions) is still limited to SADL.

"JVMF" itself isn't a datalink type or a protocol.  It's a type of message used by some datalink systems.  That's all I will say about that to keep it in the unclassified, open source realm.  More information could probably found on the internet, but I have to go work.


Edited by Raptor9

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironically the head people at the time that helped cut the ol KW because the force wanted to get away from single engine heli's.  An upgrade from bell to double it's HP and fix most the gripes was available but because it was single engine it aided to the fact an agreement couldn't be reached which is essentially @Raptor9 talk about the procurement process.  I know it wasn't one nail that put the KW down (the army spending money in other areas was also significant), but I also know immediately following the army regretted it's decision.  

Now I haven't personally flown the KW, but I've had opportunities to fly with KW dudes who transitioned over, I'd say even most AH pure guys agree the Apache isn't as flexible at finding targets especially at night.  Now killing things when found, much better.  But the finding things, ehhhh, there's room for discussion but I'd argue in general the KW, and even the older 58A/C were much much better scouting platforms. 

 


Edited by kgillers3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...