CBU-87 and CBU-103 Performance Explanation

[NineLine]

Dear all, please enjoy this report on our latest work on the CBU-87 and CBU-103.

CBUs Revisited.pdf

 

Thanks!
The ED Team

[Bukkwild]

Good Stuff!

[Arctic Fox]

Can we expect to see improvements to Rockeyes and other conventional cluster munitions in the game as well?

[BonerCat]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Fox said:

Can we expect to see improvements to Rockeyes and other conventional cluster munitions in the game as well?

This

It's good to see reworks for under performing weapon systems, for sure, but while you're at it, CBU-99/Mk20 Rockeye (as well as Bk-90, and probably few others) have seen low performance damage wise for some time now
Would definitely be great to see you guys taking an interest in those weapons as well!

Edited September 21, 2021 by BonerCat

[ST0RM]

CBU-52 for the F-5 as well, please

[NineLine]

Yeah I mean we want to make all weapons as accurate to the real thing as we can, but its also about the amount of information we can get, in some cases, what we have is the best we can do based on available info, weapons are one of the harder things to research, especially within a multinational company.

[Enduro14]

Awesome, love this kind of detail and sharing with us the User base.  Its  cool to nerd out on this stuff, thanks to the team fixing this weapon system.  Will make allot of loadouts valid again.

[5ephir0th]

Nice works and glad we see a fix for the fire flashing, it was so annoying!

 

[Eagle7907]

Very cool!  Can't wait for the audio enhancements.  Been waiting for a long time for that.

[Get_Lo]

33 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

CBU-52 for the F-5 as well, please

I agree! This bomb is an absolute joke! its worse than even the CBU87s. I dont think it even damages small jeeps

[NineLine]

8 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

I agree! This bomb is an absolute joke! its worse than even the CBU87s. I dont think it even damages small jeeps

Probably why they are not used anymore, the 52 and 58 I am told have more of a donut pattern, meaning not much falls in the middle of it. Not ideal when you want good coverage in a certain area. So we can look at the 52, but I can't say that it will or should get better at this time.

[Eihort]

Quote

As important weapons of the F-16C, F/A-18C, and A-10C, we reexamined the distribution of the CEBs and the weapon effect of each CEB to better conform with known data.

 

So when exactly can we expect the Hornet to get the capability to carry 87s and 103s?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Eihort

[Tholozor]

3 hours ago, Eihort said:

 

So when exactly can we expect the Hornet to get the capability to carry 87s and 103s?

 

Never, that's probably a typo.

[NineLine]

45 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

Never, that's probably a typo.

I believe it's in reference to the sub-munitions as they are used in the JSOW-A.

[nickos86]

Will we see this changes in the upcoming OB update (22.9.2021)? Thanks.

[SmukY]

19 minutes ago, nickos86 said:

Will we see this changes in the upcoming OB update (22.9.2021)? Thanks.

I don't want to be rude or anything like that, but did you read the document?

Edited September 22, 2021 by SmukY

[nickos86]

My bad. Missed this line. Thanks mate 

[Lithion]

Good read, thanks for the info!
Also thanks for sending a notification via the Discord. 

[draconus]

9 hours ago, Arctic Fox said:

Can we expect to see improvements to Rockeyes and other conventional cluster munitions in the game as well?

Yep, as a Tomcat pilot, I'd like to know how Mk-20 Rockeyes (CBU-100) are affected, if any.

[MasterNomis]

@NineLine

 

Will you revise other ordinance?

In DCS High Explosive munition is generally underperforming against soft targets (unarmored vehicles and infantry). In most cases blast radius is too low and effect is too bad.

That includes:

HE Cannons specially GAU-8 30mm HEI

70mm Hydra rockets HE M151

S-5 and S-8 rockets HE

Mk80s bombs

Etc..

 

 

More over. Training/Inertial bombs like BDU-33, BDU-50s have 0 damage even on direct hit.

As I believe Inertial BDU-50LGB is considered as low collateral bomb and might be used as lethal ordinance. The bomb should be able to destroy or significantly damage even armored vehicle on direct hit.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by MasterNomis

[Foka]

Acording to my observations DCS does not simulate (or do it very poorly) pressure wave of the blast and fragmentation of HE munition. A soldier can survive burst from GAU-8, unless at least one round hits him directly. Any soft target like a truck need direct hit.

[Northstar98]

Thrilled to hear of the new changes coming to to CBU-87, -103 and BLU-97/B, hopefully this will eventually get applied to all other cluster munitions and munition dispensers where possible, and then hopefully once we have a new damage model for vehicles we'll finally be gone of the age old issues with AG ordnance in DCS.

 

4 hours ago, Foka said:

Acording to my observations DCS does not simulate (or do it very poorly) pressure wave of the blast and fragmentation of HE munition. A soldier can survive burst from GAU-8, unless at least one round hits him directly. Any soft target like a truck need direct hit.

 

There is some amount of splash damage for bombs and rockets etc, (which I think is an approximation of blast (though obviously, it doesn't impart forces or anything)), but fragmentation is completely absent, in some cases, the absence of fragmentation leads to DCS artificially inflating the warheads of things (up to 500%) to compensate, to get the desired effect.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Northstar98

[TLTeo]

Yeah we really need these changes to apply to all cluster weapons. As unrealistic as the current implementation is, at least all the modules are affected equally. If you change the 87/103 and not the other CBUs, you've effectively made it so that the CBUs on the F-5, C-101, Mirage, Fishbed, Tomcat, Harrier, Frogfoots and Hornet are useless while the Viper and A10 get to use proper ones.

 

It's also one of those things that affects every side equally, so it's one of those cases where taking an educated guess for the performance of a particular weapon is much more beneficial for everyone flying in the sim, unlike e.g a/a missiles.

[Spectre VCAW-1]

I have never had luck with the AMG-154A(from an F/A-18), dropped 4 in multiplayer on an SA-6 site, they were not targeted on the same spot. I watched the submunitions blanket the area, yet not a single unit on the ground was even damaged. The other cluster munitions for the F/A-18C are just as bad. 

[Stubbies2003]

5 hours ago, MasterNomis said:

More over. Training/Inertial bombs like BDU-33, BDU-50s have 0 damage even on direct hit.

 

I cannot speak for the BDU-50 but you do realize that the BDU-33 is basically a 25 pound chunk of aluminum with a 12 gauge shotgun round not for damaging a target but for marking the hit so you can see where it landed?  Any military vehicle with even basic armor isn't going to be bothered much by that even with a direct hit.  Jeeps and other completely un-armored vehicles sure it will do some limited damage as a blunt weapon but that is about it.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Stubbies2003