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Looking for defensive BFM tips


Willdass
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Hi all,

I'm having troubles in defensive bfm in the Viper. Can't out rate or reverse the turns. I practice against Veteran AI Mig-29, SU-27 and JF-17.

In the hornet I can just go slow and force a scissor fight and make the opponent overshoot. Works every time. 

 

Any tips for how to fight defensive bfm in the Viper?

 

Edit: Forgot to mention my loadout. 2 120c, 4 9x, no tanks. I guess the drag is a factor but I dont know how much. The opponents are clean.


Edited by Willdass

Setup:

VPC Warbrd with TM F/A-18 stick on 10cm extension, Realsimulator FSSB-R3 with TM Warthog stick (with angle upgrade), Winwing Super Taurus throttle, Winwing Combat and Take off Panels, TM TPR Pendular Rudders,  3x TM Cougar MFD's. Wacom Intuos S for VRK.

RTX 3080, Ryzen 7 5800X 5,05ghz single core boost, 32gb RAM 3600mhz, HP Reverb G2

 

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I wouldn't worry about loadout too much because BFM is always dynamic.
It is very rarely a fair fight in a "real" situation.

Defensive is very difficult because the you have "already messed up" and should never have gotten there in the first place.
Regardless, it is important to practice and of course never give up just because you're defensive.

In an F-16 I would go for a maximum rate turn and jink the initial gunshot. From there it is really about managing the energy and try to get into a neutral situation.
The vertical is also an area where the Viper is strong but it leaves you very vulnerable at the top of the "egg."

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Stay out of plain, you should be changing aspect every few seconds to trash the gun solution. And at the same time try to bring them in as close as possible to trash the WEZ for the fox 2.  

 

As a bug person. I can tell you a lot vipers I see try to just out radius me when they go into panic mode and it makes them predictable. 

 

Don't give them an easy time, create as many angle problems as possible. Use roll and pitch. And don't be afraid to dump energy to equalize things, when the situation calls for it. Better to end up low and slow but alive then fast and high but dead. Sometimes you may not be able to turn things around and go on the offense and in those cases it's best to try and extend away and recommit. Remember the viper is very fast and can get fast really quick and that is sometimes a valid option. In other words Don't make the determination to keep fighting unless you can in fact turn things around. So you should constantly be adding things up and evaluating where you are and what's gonna happen next. In many cases the longer the fight lasts the worse things get for the F-16

 

And never give up, even if it looks bad, don't just accept the situation. The bandit can and will make mistakes. 


Edited by Wizard_03
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DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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I agree with @Wizard_03

 

Also, the loadouts you have present a very strange situation indeed. You have missiles but your opponent does not? How did you get into a situation where your opponent is in your control zone in the first place, then? They should have taken a sidewinder long before that could happen. At least take those missiles off your rails if you are practicing defensive gun-only BFM.

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Thanks a lot guys! 

Had much more success last night. Having a loadout was mainly to set up some kind of dissadvantage for me to get me defensive.  I tried with a clean viper and was surprised how much easier it became.

Setup:

VPC Warbrd with TM F/A-18 stick on 10cm extension, Realsimulator FSSB-R3 with TM Warthog stick (with angle upgrade), Winwing Super Taurus throttle, Winwing Combat and Take off Panels, TM TPR Pendular Rudders,  3x TM Cougar MFD's. Wacom Intuos S for VRK.

RTX 3080, Ryzen 7 5800X 5,05ghz single core boost, 32gb RAM 3600mhz, HP Reverb G2

 

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I love the Viper ( mind you I'm no good at fighting with it) but I really like how it flies. I was watching this and it is highly unlikely a Viper would last long in a turn fight with a F22.

This guys talking about the maneuvers says in a post stall condition, even though the plane is not technically flying they can still point the nose where they want. Wow!

 

 

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Ask Jesus for Forgiveness before you takeoff :pilotfly:!

PC=Win 10 HP 64 bit, Gigabyte Z390, Intel I5-9600k, 32 gig ram, Nvidia 2060 Super 8gig video. TM HOTAS WARTHOG with Saitek Pedals

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I like to set up an 8 Red vs 6 Blue guns only furball over Damascus.  You can take a couple of 9m's if you wish.  The AI will fight til they run out of fuel.  That's a good workout.  Cheers!

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Read this a few times until you can visualize it....

If the aspect angle you see is greater than the angle off tail, then the bandit is stuck in lag. If so, keep your rate fight up. If you see lots of the top of his jet, and he is only 20-30 degrees off your tail.... He is stuck in lag.

If his aspect angle matches his angle off tail (up to ~45 degrees)... He is in the control zone.

He can only threaten you when his intakes are pointed at you (ignoring the HOBS threat for this discussion). But, if his jet rotates to point, you must honor that with the appropriate reaction.

Beyond a gun wez, pull it out of AB, flare, and limiter pull to stuff the bandit. Be ready to jink as he approaches gun range with lots of closure.

Inside a gun wez, Jink as his nose rotates to lead. Jinking downhill or a full 360 degree tuck-under jink is best.

To maximize your rate, keep the bandit 10-20 degrees above the horizon and make a smooth floor transition.

Don't 1 circle reverse unless you see a close overshoot to the outside of your turn circle. You will see neck-snapping line of sight, where you have to look over your other shoulder.

As others have said, never give up. The goal of defensive BFM is just to stay alive. It's not combat training, it's training to max perform your jet. As soon as you are neutral or in a stalemated fight, end the fight.... You survived, good job. If you ever were in a combat situation maneuvering in relation to a hostile.... You would just have to stay alive defensive for a few seconds while your wingman killed the hostile from out of sight.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



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Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

https://v65th.wordpress.com/

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Another tip, or more like a mindset:

 

Don't think yourself is in defensive, instead, think that you want to go offensive and kill the guy on your six, because avoiding his shots is one thing, being able to reverse the fight and get your gun on him is what will win you the fight. 

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On 9/23/2021 at 10:09 AM, SCPanda said:

Another tip, or more like a mindset:

 

Don't think yourself is in defensive, instead, think that you want to go offensive and kill the guy on your six, because avoiding his shots is one thing, being able to reverse the fight and get your gun on him is what will win you the fight. 

 

Lots of good points so far. When you're defensive you're leading the dance so to speak. You still have a lot of control over what is going on. Change plane, change direction, change speed, create position and gun tracking problems for your foe.

 

The Viper tends to be better above 10k ft, so high energy spiral climbs can work well as they do in the F15. But this can be tricky to do if missiles are involved.

 

Also as before practice practice practice, first against AI (despite their simplified flight models) and once you're good there move onto one of the dogfight servers.


Edited by Sideburns

Core i5 6600k@4.2Ghz | 32gb DDR4 3200Mhz | MSI 2070 Gaming Z | 500Gb OS SSD + 1TB Gaming SSD | Asus VG27AQ | Trackhat clip | Thrustmaster Warthog

 

F14 | F16 | AJS37 | F5 | Av8b | FC3 | Mig21 | FW190D9 | Huey

 

Been playing DCS from Flanker 2.0 to present :D

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