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Radio Direction Finding


Charly_Owl

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Just now, Tarres said:

OK.

The A1271 only works when paired to an ILS signal.

In this case works as intended.

 

But I´m unable to set any kind of beacon in the ME in the WW2 maps to mimic this functionality.

 

 

 

 

Maybe this will help: 

 

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2 hours ago, Don Rudi said:

How do you set a direction for a beam in the editor? 

You can`t, it is determined by RWY direction where is localizer from ILS installed.

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7 hours ago, Tarres said:

Yes, the beam aproach A1271 is different.

I´m testing now in the Caucasus.

I set the A1271 freq in the ME with the ILS freq of Senaki. In flight, If you set to on the A1271, you can hear a morse tone. This tone change according to the doc posted above by RodBorza

 http://www.tuberadio.com/robinson/museum/command_SBA/ 

 

Later I will try to set a A1271 beacon in the WW2 maps. 

 

Works perfect.

 

Wow! Cool, man!

I didn't know it was possible with existing ILS frequencies. I'll try that out.

 

 

6 hours ago, Reflected said:

It did not provide glideslope info did it? I’m curious how you can set it up in the ME for the ww2 maps, because you need to give a direction to the signal too. 

 

No glideslope information, only localizer iformation. I believe that they would have an NDB station on the heading of the runaway at some pre determined distance, like it is on Caucausus. Most NDBs are 1 nm and 0.5 nm from the runway threshold. Then it is a matter of coming at the right altitude (that would be 300 feet AGL at 1 nm, when you cross over the first NDB). Then you would control your descent manually, as it is done in GA aircraft.

 

7 hours ago, Reflected said:

Great info chaps, thanks!

 

using the needles is a piece of cake. 
 

my question is, why gould you fiddle with turnin the antenna instead of juat using the needles?

 

also the beam approach is something totally different, right?

 

how does that work?

 

"also the beam approach is something totally different, right?"

Yep, an independent system.

 

"my question is, why would you fiddle with turnin the antenna instead of juat using the needles?"

 

Well, that's a great question.

I believe that there are two different situations: Known and Unknown navigation. Or Pre-Briefed and On the fly, name it as you may.

For the first case you would keep the antenna locked at zero degrees and use the needles to help you out. 

In this case you would know the general direction you would need to go, only using the Radio Nav to fine tuning it, and avoid wind drift and other errors. 

So, coming out of England, one would tune in an Brit NDB on the way out, halfway to France the Navigator would tune a radio station to a city and from there is using a little bit of everything to get to the target: visual, dead reckoning and radio nav to fine tune and correct it. Bombing done, time to get back, using the needles.

 

The second case I believe would be if one got lost, due to any number of factors. If that's the case, the pilot and the navigator have to make some maneuvers, as described on this page here: http://www.tuberadio.com/robinson/museum/R1155/

 

You go at some direction, fiddle with the antenna, find the relative direction you need to go, the pilot maneuvers towards the station, you lock the antenna at zero, and then you repeat the process until you find your way home.

 

As a side note, I have already had a lot of admiration for the Mosquito and its crews. Their missions were legendary. Love the fact that it is a granddaddy of the F-15E, another aircraft I love. 

But what seems to be a roomy cockpit and that the Navigator is doing nothing changes when you start learning about these things. Imagine yourself flying at night, low-level, poor visibility, trying to trim out this thing that is churning fuel like crazy and ruining the aircraft balance per the minute. Now you are in a cramped cockpit with all the survival gear, maps, flashlights, water and whatever they brought with them.

Then you have a big tube radio heating up the back of your head.

And to add to that your crewmate is all twisted, with his left arm behind your neck, fiddling with antennas and radios so you can find your way home. 

 

Those guys were amazing.

 

 

 

 

 

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This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

YouTube: SloppyDog

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54 minutes ago, RodBorza said:

Wow! Cool, man!

I didn't know it was possible with existing ILS frequencies. I'll try that out.

Well, both works on the same frequencies.

But there is something in the code of the A1271 or/and the ILS beacon definition that makes the A1271 works as intended.

 

I’m unable to set a working custom beacon even with the correct frequency in the ME that works…

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When the T1154 Master switch is in R/T position, the T1154 transmits voice.

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So, can we use this in multiplayer as a primitive TACAN to get a bearing to my wingman?

 

I mean, my wingman transmits a continuous signal with the T1154 and I tune the R1155 to his freq. in DF mode, then point my nose at him using the pilot’s DF  indicator?

 

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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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38 minutes ago, Bozon said:

I mean, my wingman transmits a continuous signal with the T1154 and I tune the R1155 to his freq. in DF mode, then point my nose at him using the pilot’s DF  indicator?

It is great idea.

I can folow AI Mosquito this way. Now i must test it with human player if T1154 works correctly for as, for players.

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1 hour ago, Bozon said:

So, can we use this in multiplayer as a primitive TACAN to get a bearing to my wingman?

 

I mean, my wingman transmits a continuous signal with the T1154 and I tune the R1155 to his freq. in DF mode, then point my nose at him using the pilot’s DF  indicator?

 

I believe it is possible, but I still have to test it in multiplayer. Also, I think they used this for bombing raids, with one aircraft acting as a Pathfinder unit and the others following its signal. 

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

YouTube: SloppyDog

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Depending on the fidelity of the model they are using, thought I might clear up some stuff with receiver at least. The set is a hetrodyne  receiver which means it mixes a locally produced signal with the received signal to create a intermediate frequency that the radio then works with.  Any deeper and you get into radio theory etc but it gives context for the get hetrodyne switch on the lower left. This is misleading because this switch is actually a beat frequency oscillator. The BFO is on when this switch is flipped on and really only deals  with CW or Morse code transmissions. The British called this wireless radiotelephonery and it is the presence or absence of a signal. Since there is no data in the signal, just being a carrier wave, the BFO is used to translate the absence or presence of a signal into an audio signal. 
   When you leave that switch in the up position the set is basically an AM radio set. This was called radiotelphone by the British so if you see wt or rt anywhere, this is what it means.
 (I’m not sure about the overriding tone that is present with the BFO switched on. I do not have experience with that particular set in real life, but this behavior is more common when the BFO is switched on when you are receiving am rather than cw. The BFO only works in the presence of a signal so the result is a constant steady tone that overrides the regular am signal. Morse code transmissions using a BFO are generally very clear unless the airwaves are very crowded. )

The filter can help here. I’m not sure of how much it cuts out or even if it is operative here in dcs but it limits amount of the radio spectrum being listened to. 
 
omni setting on the master switch probably best used for cw type beacons and maybe resistance operators using parasets. 

AVC was said to non operational earlier… I’m not sure because the I’ve not picked up a AM station to try it out on. But, I’m really struggling to find a use for it absent direction finding using broadcast radio where signal strength would vary so much that you would be in danger of getting your ears blown out moving from weak to strong signals. If you were to be listening for a very weak signal I would not use it at all as it tends to limit sensitivity.
 

im not familiar with the antennas are modeled beyond the loop in the cockpit , but you would want to use a more Omni directional antenna like a dipole that receives symmetrically along an axis  rather than directional antenna that would be great for finding single signal and providing a bearing for the pilot.  The visual mode of df probably uses some element  of the antenna set up to analyze multipath reception and signal strength. Can’t do that with the directional antenna. 


there are notations for low frequency medium etc… this is because antennas are turned for specific frequencies. Would have to have the aircraft manual to have the specific to figure out the optimized combination of antenna settings for a particular use. 
 

the color bands on the receiver match the controls on the transmitter for the same frequencies.   The radios use the old units of mega and kilo cycles rather than hertz. 
that’s all I’ve got for now. 

 

 


Edited by FlyingTaco21
Correction
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@FlyingTaco21, thanks that is interesting about the BFO. IIRC, last night I used the Caucasus map and tuned to one of the RSBN frequencies, and had BFO on. It did give a whistle until I fine-tuned the frequency and then I got a clear and clean morse code beeps from the station.

 

kudos to ED, that is pretty fine modeling!

 

EDIT:

Tried again with/out the HETI (BFO) switch and it seems to have no effect.


Edited by Bozon
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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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14 hours ago, JimBo* said:

i got it to work on channel map, but the same mission on my server doesn't work. anyone have better luck getting it to work on multiplayer or is just me?

No luck on a dedicated server here. SP worked fine tho 😕

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On 9/20/2021 at 3:39 PM, RodBorza said:

 

 

As a side note, I have already had a lot of admiration for the Mosquito and its crews. Their missions were legendary. Love the fact that it is a granddaddy of the F-15E, another aircraft I love. 

But what seems to be a roomy cockpit and that the Navigator is doing nothing changes when you start learning about these things. Imagine yourself flying at night, low-level, poor visibility, trying to trim out this thing that is churning fuel like crazy and ruining the aircraft balance per the minute. Now you are in a cramped cockpit with all the survival gear, maps, flashlights, water and whatever they brought with them.

Then you have a big tube radio heating up the back of your head.

And to add to that your crewmate is all twisted, with his left arm behind your neck, fiddling with antennas and radios so you can find your way home. 

 

Those guys were amazing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You missed the most important part in terms of admiration of how difficult these crews had it, all the above mixed with exhaustion from repeated sorties, losing friendsand obviously being shot at from Flak, tripple A and other fighters every flight!!


Edited by Hawkeye_UK
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1 hour ago, No1sonuk said:

Do the multiplayer versions of the maps have the beacons by default, though?

You might need to put them in.

I should have been more specific. This appears to not work on a dedicated server similar to this issue https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/273197-picture-to-group-not-working-in-mp/?tab=comments#comment-4682581. It does however appear to work for a SP mission or a MP mission hosted by the open beta client.

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On 9/22/2021 at 12:50 PM, FlyingTaco21 said:

Depending on the fidelity of the model they are using, thought I might clear up some stuff with receiver at least. The set is a hetrodyne  receiver which means it mixes a locally produced signal with the received signal to create a intermediate frequency that the radio then works with.  Any deeper and you get into radio theory etc but it gives context for the get hetrodyne switch on the lower left. This is misleading because this switch is actually a beat frequency oscillator. The BFO is on when this switch is flipped on and really only deals  with CW or Morse code transmissions. The British called this wireless radiotelephonery and it is the presence or absence of a signal. Since there is no data in the signal, just being a carrier wave, the BFO is used to translate the absence or presence of a signal into an audio signal. 
   When you leave that switch in the up position the set is basically an AM radio set. This was called radiotelphone by the British so if you see wt or rt anywhere, this is what it means.

Some corrections for you:
The word is "heterodyne".
"CW" = Continuous Wave.  This was called "Wireless Telegraphy" ( or "WT" ), not "wireless radiotelephonery" as you said.
"R/T" = Radio Telephony.  The "phon(e)" part refers to voice transmission.

As for how to use this equipment, There's a decent video here:
 


He has a couple of errors, like thinking "R/T" is "receive and transmit", and his NDB beacon morse code is wrong, but it's a decent description.

This one covers some of the above, but it includes how to set up a beacon and a practical example of beam approach:

 

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Do airfields transmit by default for the direction finder, or do you need to manually put a unit down at a given airfield to achieve this?

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37 minutes ago, Mud said:

Do airfields transmit by default for the direction finder, or do you need to manually put a unit down at a given airfield to achieve this?

For now, only works for the ils beacons. 
Maybe In the long term we’ve some kind of “transmitter” to set in the WW2 maps.

 

There is a “broadcasting station” filter in the ME, so maybe in the future.


Edited by Tarres
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Just now, Tarres said:

For now, only works for the ils beacons. 
Maybe I’m the long term we’ve some kind of “transmitter” to set in the WW2 maps.

 

There is a “broadcasting station” filter in the ME, so maybe in the future.

The Caucasus map has a LOT of the sub-500KHz NDBs that can be picked up on the R1155.  The ILS system runs in the 100+MHz range.  See the "beam approach" part of the second video I linked to above.

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