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Elevator trim sensitivity/overall control sensitivity


TacticalOni
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In contrast to the title, I'm actually more looking into the elevator trim sensitivity, with a control sensitivity question as a follow-on

While test-flying the Mossie today/tonight I noticed that it was really difficult, nigh impossible to trim the aircraft for "hands-off" or even close to hand off flying. Just the gentlest touch of my trim hat to trim the nose down would send the nose into a 3-500'/m dive. It's like the "notches"  are too large and cause too dramatic of a movement. I know that an aircraft in flight is constantly entering different conditions that would force the pilot to adjust the trim if he wants to be hands off, but I can even get the spitfire to fly reasonably straight and level for long enough to get a glass of water or check the map. Typically I can wiggle the stick a little to catch up but here's where the follow-on comes into play. 

I know those are some awful big control surfaces, but was the Mosquito really this sensitive to fly? 
I'm on a TM Warthog on a 20cm extension and I'm using MFG Xwind pedals and this is the first aircraft where I've had to introduce curves. As soon as my stick left the center detent the whole aircraft would leap in whatever direction I moved the stick. Holy cow!  

I'm not sure this is a bug at all, I'm not opposed to adding curves even though I haven't for any other bird because of my setup. The biggest gripe for me thus far has to be the elevator trim, and wishing it was just a little "finer" on the notches so I can let go of the stick long enough for my Navigator to collect himself 😛 [actually, on re-reading this and collecting my thoughts, it appears the entire elevator system is just off-the-wall bonkers, for me anyway, I've had no qualms or gripes about the rudder or ailerons, trims or usage]


Edited by Sledgehammer427
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Yea, elvator trim seems way too strong for my taste too, specially in low speeds. And elevetor itself, I have to put a ridiculous soft curve in the pitch.

 

Not sure, perhaps is realistic. Anyway, is true that is hard to make handsfree flight.

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I'm also curious. Elevator sensitivity is extreme. I have a very precise Virpil stick yet I had to add a 25% curve (which I don't like!).

No doubt they have crunched the numbers and everything is according to spec, but you have to take into account the controller hardware that players are using?! If I still had my old Thrustmaster I would not have been able to fly the plane at all I think. What kind of controllers are used to test these FM's?

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I had to add about a 15 curve on pitch despite my 20cm extension as well. Rudder seems likewise sensitive, as even with a 20 curve on it I only need to move it about 5mm for a coordinated turn. 

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If you want a "calmer" elevator trim and you're going to use a joystick for elevator trim, go to file:

<DCS dir>\Mods\aircraft\MosquitoFBMkVI\Input\MosquitoFBMkVI\joystick\default.lua

You may now do two things:


1. Modyfiy the original commands for trim nose up/down, but this, while harmless in itself, will result in double commands shown in orange font in "Controls" window. Nothing will break, but you may not like it.

Orange font and double entries on the binding list will disapper only if you make identical changes to the same commands in .\keyboard\default.lua file - this is a perfectly valid solution, too.

 

2. Instead (that's what I chose), you may add the separate "trim slow" commands to the file:

 

{cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROLS, down = device_commands.Button_16, up = device_commands.Button_16, value_down = -0.25, value_up = 0.0, name = _("Trim Elevator Nose Up Slow"),   category = _("Flight Control")},
{cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROLS, down = device_commands.Button_16, up = device_commands.Button_16, value_down = 0.25,  value_up = 0.0, name = _("Trim Elevator Nose Down Slow"), category = _("Flight Control")},

 

Now you need to tune the numbers for "value_down" in both of these commands to your liking. The original +-1.0 are very fast, while +-0.25 seem very slow. I've just started testing it, but 0.25 seem to be good for cruise when you want very fine adjustments, so you can let go of the joystick and sip your coffee. However, they may be too slow for quick configuration changes clean/dirty/flaps/no-flaps/etc. I don't know yet.

 

Of course you can also multiply such pairs of commands (just make sure you give all of them different descriptions like "Trim Elevator Nose Up Slow As Snail" "fast as hell" or whatever). For example you can make one pair extremely slow (fine trimming during cruise) and another fast trim pair.  I, for that matter, have a tendency in warbirds to assign one pair of trim nose up/down commands to TM Warthog CMS hat up/down, and the other pair to the trim hat (where they technically belong). Up till now they've always had the same speed, but nothing prevents me/you to have different trim speeds on either of them. (CMS hat left/right is also great for rudder trim in warbirds, while ailreron trim may stay on the trim hat).

 

Suit yourself 🙂

 

 

EDIT: Sorry. As for the elevator itself - use as extreme curves as in the Spit. You may start with something as crazy as 30 curvature + sensitivity Y about 70 or so. Then work with these numbers until you're happy with the results.


Edited by scoobie
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2 hours ago, scoobie said:

If you want a "calmer" elevator trim and you're going to use a joystick for elevator trim, go to file[...]

 

 


I just added in the "slow" commands to the .lua, and it's helped a lot. Thank you! 
As I said before, I have no issues adding curves, it was the dramatic way that the trim worked that was throwing me off more than anything

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It was noted as being very sensitive to tail surface deflection - I agree about the trim though, it could do with a finer adjustment by default. I think it could probably be a tiny bit less sensitive in pitch overall, low flying is continual tiny PIO even with a 15 curve & my virpil base, rather like the entire horizontal stab moves. In general maneuvering 15 feels great with my stick.

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13 hours ago, nachomaga said:

Yea, elvator trim seems way too strong for my taste too, specially in low speeds. And elevetor itself, I have to put a ridiculous soft curve in the pitch.

 

Not sure, perhaps is realistic. Anyway, is true that is hard to make handsfree flight.

It is absolutely accurate, especially if you are using a standard controller that is much shorter than the real thing. Thanks

 

As for trim controls I will ask and see if the control can be made finer. 

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4 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

So as an example, say I had just taken off and was flying level, the nose wants to climb, of course. 
I push the trim hat forward on my stick and it nudges the nose down, bringing the nose almost level. Another tap of the hat should do it, so I tap the hat switch again and its too far, the aircraft starts to dive, there's no comfortable middle ground where you are mostly level, you're climbing or diving. 

Maybe it's more proper to say the trim isn't sensitive enough 🤔

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If I may help explain the tendency that we are discussing, it is that the trim tab length of travel seems excessive for the amount of trim applied by a quick bump of a hat switch. Because of the length of trim tab travel travel as currently modeled, the pitch reaction of the aircraft to a quick bump of a hat switch (that is mapped to elevator trim up/down) seems to be excessive in that there are large pitch changes associated with a slight touch of the hat switch. 

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5 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

 

  After a lot of testing, it seems that the amount of trim wheel movement per VERY quick "click" of pitch trim input (via a hat switch) is rather exaggerated. Even the quickest, most gentle tap of the pitch trim on the hat results in quite a bit of pitch trim wheel movement in the cockpit itself. A quick tap of the pitch trim on a hat switch should produce far, far less pitch trim movement. 

 

  

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I'm using a Saitek Cessna trim wheel which works a treat.....it works like the real thing,had it for years now....only cost £30,and it was worth it,it gives a lot of smooth fine adjustment quickly,rather than having to endlessly click away at a button.

 

G1GaFGn.jpg

 

 


Edited by Basco1
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8 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

The amount of movement for a quick bump of a trum button. Obviously if we all had rotary controls it'd solve it, but a binary control like a hat feels awkwardly aggressive.

 

My other issue was not that it's very responsive in pitch - I'm fine with that - it's that it feels longditudinally a little bit unstable, which combined with the aggressive trim does not make life very comfortable.

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9 hours ago, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

 

Thx for the reply... As others said, if I press trim hat for a short moment, the amount of movement is excesive in my opinion. I think it happens in the past to other modules too, Spitfire changes trim sensitivity in one update long ago, was too abrupt (or it was only rudder trim?). And Viggen comes to mind too, if I remember correct.

 

Again, should be realistic, but in other props I don't have to fight so much for level flight. Don't know if it much work, but adding an Special Setting that user can choose between realistic and soft trim would be awesome. Or two kind of input bindings, Normal Trim and Slow Trim, so you can use one for take off/landing, and the other for level flight.

 

Anyway, amazing module by the way, very happy with it 🙂


Edited by nachomaga
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I tried Scoobie lua edit and works perfect for me (0.25 value), happy with the results. I can cruise now very stable 🙂 Pitch trim is very similar now in speed to aileron trim (and similar to other modules).

 

Didn't try in take off or landing, but perhaps I can use the normal trim control (faster) in the same hat with modifier key. I have to test.

 

Thanks Scoobie!


Edited by nachomaga
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On 9/19/2021 at 3:19 AM, Basco1 said:

I'm using a Saitek Cessna trim wheel which works a treat.....it works like the real thing,had it for years now....only cost £30,and it was worth it,it gives a lot of smooth fine adjustment quickly,rather than having to endlessly click away at a button.

 

G1GaFGn.jpg

 

 

 

 

  All this tells us is that there is a problem with how much input the in-game trim wheel gets when using hat switches on the stick (as a good majority of DCS users probably use for trim). 

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22 minutes ago, statrekmike said:

 

  All this tells us is that there is a problem with how much input the in-game trim wheel gets when using hat switches on the stick (as a good majority of DCS users probably use for trim). 

 

The topic of the thread is ' Elevator trim sensitivity/overall control sensitivity '......within my reply I am just showing how I personally use this trim wheel to get over the issue that others are witnessing......so I'm at a loss of why you have an issue with it.

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On 9/18/2021 at 7:35 PM, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

Same problem as the others.

For me it is a very sensitive REACTION to movement. One click and sends her going up or down in a very high pitch rate.

I use an old CH Products FighterStick USB with 36 curves and Y saturation in 53.

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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I tried to fly level on Mosquito hand-off and found that it is almost impossible to do
The airplane  has negative static longitudinal stability
You trim for angle of attack, but the airplane does not hold it, or something doesn't work right and plane keeps pitching up and down.
Similar problems with other axis
Like if the airplane is unstable in all axis altogether


Edited by J13 Serenity
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On 9/19/2021 at 12:35 AM, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here

Just to check if we're talking the same thing.


Are you using a "real" trim wheel - an analog control?
Or a keyboard?
Or some trim hat nose up/down buttons on your joystick?

 

I'm asking because:
1. An analog control will work just fine, it's not the subject of this discussion.
2. Keyboards are on average fast as hell, you can tap a key for a very very short time.
3. Joystick buttons (+ fingers woring on them) vary in speed, but on average are slower than keyboards.

 

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On 9/21/2021 at 6:31 AM, scoobie said:

If you want a "calmer" elevator trim and you're going to use a joystick for elevator trim, go to file:

<DCS dir>\Mods\aircraft\MosquitoFBMkVI\Input\MosquitoFBMkVI\joystick\default.lua

You may now do two things:


1. Modyfiy the original commands for trim nose up/down, but this, while harmless in itself, will result in double commands shown in orange font in "Controls" window. Nothing will break, but you may not like it.

Orange font and double entries on the binding list will disapper only if you make identical changes to the same commands in .\keyboard\default.lua file - this is a perfectly valid solution, too.

 

2. Instead (that's what I chose), you may add the separate "trim slow" commands to the file:

 

{cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROLS, down = device_commands.Button_16, up = device_commands.Button_16, value_down = -0.25, value_up = 0.0, name = _("Trim Elevator Nose Up Slow"),   category = _("Flight Control")},
{cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROLS, down = device_commands.Button_16, up = device_commands.Button_16, value_down = 0.25,  value_up = 0.0, name = _("Trim Elevator Nose Down Slow"), category = _("Flight Control")},

 

Now you need to tune the numbers for "value_down" in both of these commands to your liking. The original +-1.0 are very fast, while +-0.25 seem very slow. I've just started testing it, but 0.25 seem to be good for cruise when you want very fine adjustments, so you can let go of the joystick and sip your coffee. However, they may be too slow for quick configuration changes clean/dirty/flaps/no-flaps/etc. I don't know yet.

 

Of course you can also multiply such pairs of commands (just make sure you give all of them different descriptions like "Trim Elevator Nose Up Slow As Snail" "fast as hell" or whatever). For example you can make one pair extremely slow (fine trimming during cruise) and another fast trim pair.  I, for that matter, have a tendency in warbirds to assign one pair of trim nose up/down commands to TM Warthog CMS hat up/down, and the other pair to the trim hat (where they technically belong). Up till now they've always had the same speed, but nothing prevents me/you to have different trim speeds on either of them. (CMS hat left/right is also great for rudder trim in warbirds, while ailreron trim may stay on the trim hat).

 

Suit yourself 🙂

 

 

EDIT: Sorry. As for the elevator itself - use as extreme curves as in the Spit. You may start with something as crazy as 30 curvature + sensitivity Y about 70 or so. Then work with these numbers until you're happy with the results.

 

Thank you so much for this, Scoobie!

 

This has been brought up by several people in the past as well, for all WW2 aircraft.  The increments from a single tap on the trim hat are just too much to finely trim out the aircrafts.
If only I had known earlier what a simple modification it is to add your own, more fine increments.

 

Forever grateful,

 

Mud


Edited by Mud
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On 9/18/2021 at 11:35 PM, NineLine said:

Just checked, I am not seeing an issue with the trim being overly sensitive here, do you mean in movement or do you mean in reaction to the movement?

 

With both Virpil and thrustmaster sticks using a hat switch for trim it is impossible to keep it in level flight, one notch up or down makes it rapidly up or down over 1000 feet per minute.

 

If you want a good example of this, make a night mission and try and fly instruments, it will leave you in no doubt.

 

It is common sense that this current flight model isnt correct, as the mosquito losses would have been horrendous with inexperienced aircrews, it would have been known as a flying coffin by its aircrews.  I do not hold that De Havilland produced an aircraft that could not be trimmed out to sustain level flight wihout violent pitch oscilliations.

 

This needs review and sorting, rather than LUA edits.

this also needs revistiting regarding its "cannot reproduce" category

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I’m pretty sure it’s not the trim sensitivity nor control sensitivity.  The aircraft is just extremely tail heavy and it causes a crazy instability.  I need 2-2.5 units of nose down trim for level flight.  Surely not realistic if takeoff trim is 1.5 nose down in orser to overcome the nose up pitch caused by the flaps being down. Then you need 2.5 with the flaps up? Nah

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I find that the only real issue is the speed at which the elevator trim wheel moves when it's pressed. The movements are faster/grosser in comparison to the aileron and rudder trim wheels. The LUA edit changing the speed from 1.0 to 0.25 allows me to get very close to maintaining level flight with little trouble. 

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