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Was the Anton really this rubbish?


Bagpipe
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Horses for courses applies, I get it. It's not a dogfighter.

 

But was it really this poor?

I mean it takes an act of divine intervention to actually tag an enemy fighter let alone several. More often than not in any of the furball missions I am downed within seconds.

 

The DCS Ai doesn't help matters with it's psychotic use of ammunition which basically turns their weaponry into brightly coloured water cannons but it all becomes so much more obvious when flying the Anton.

 

What's the word on the street? 

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AI is rubbish, not the Anton. There's a way to fight the AI planes but it's so unrealistic that even if you do manage to down them there's zero gratification because it's so bonkers.

 

Don't rush towards the AI fighters, let the wingmen do it, then once it's one giant ball of chaos climb up and then do boom & zoom attacks, point is try not to attract AI's attention. If you see an AI is approaching you then dive down and run on deck, most of the time the AI disengages if you are couple of clicks away.

 

Then there's also the question of the missing A8 1.65ATA boost option, however there's a continuous argument about its historical applicability to A8's simulated in DCS. One thing you can be sure that even with 1.65ATA the dogfights with AI will be exactly the same as they are now, i.e. bonkers.

 

 

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I agree on the AI being part of the problem, but I also find the Anton to be a poor performer in general. I've tried applying boom and zoom against targets at high altitudes and at low altitudes, and the Anton doesn't like either. It obviously isn't a turn fighter, but with its atrocious climb performance it's not an energy fighter either. You get one boom to hit a target, then you have to zoom so far away to climb without getting shredded. You're a sitting duck with a climb speed of 300kph and maybe 10m/s climb if you're lucky. Usually I'm stuck at 5m/s climb. It's like it has massive drag in a climb at full throttle, yet when in the landing pattern it has zero drag and refuses to slow down unless you cut to idle. I can see this being deadly if you're skilled enough to land a lot of 20mm hits with the target still obscured by your nose, but until you get that good you're just taking pot shots at a target, then extending miles away to look for another target to hit in the same way.  


Edited by Nealius
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Yeah the AI probably is the main issue. It is so binary and unrealistic. I try to spend more time with this module but the SP training is poor so your only option is to go over to MP, spend hours locating targets and then get massacred because you haven't trained enough before-hand... It's an endless cycle of disappointment 😅 for me at least.

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My assumption is that the version we have was heavily and armoured for use against either bombers or in a ground attack role.  Use it for its primary role and it’s a good aircraft.  
Sure, it’s a bit pants as a fighter, but that’s what the 109 was for.

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55 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

My assumption is that the version we have was heavily and armoured for use against either bombers or in a ground attack role.  Use it for its primary role and it’s a good aircraft.  
Sure, it’s a bit pants as a fighter, but that’s what the 109 was for.

 

I am willing to accept that, would be cool to see the F version at some point mind you

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I thought the A6-A8 were Sturmbocke variants with more armour and heavier armament? Bomber destroyers that were heavy and clumsy enough that they were frequently escorted by 109s. 
 

4 x 20mm and 2 x 303s are heavy. There’s no such thing as a free lunch…


Edited by Mogster
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On 9/15/2021 at 6:14 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

My assumption is that the version we have was heavily and armoured for use against either bombers or in a ground attack role.  Use it for its primary role and it’s a good aircraft.  
Sure, it’s a bit pants as a fighter, but that’s what the 109 was for.

That version would be the F8 model.  

 

The 190A4-8 was a fighter.  The D9 was a high altitude interceptor.  And the 109E-G was a light fighter.  

 

In more modern terms.  The 109 was the F-16 and the 190 was the F-15.  

 

The 190 in DCS feels closer to a F model which was the ground attack fighter.   

 

The roll rate is to sluggish, it's dive acceleration and speeds are pretty meh.   The energy retention is poor at best.  

 

 

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A8 is predominantly an anti bomber fighter. Armoured engine cowl and cockpit, 2 x 30 cal 4 x 20mm.  Engine isn’t that strong. You can’t drag all that extra weight around without penalty. There are pics of frontline A8s with the outboard guns removed, but that would require a new FM.

 

D9 and 109 were predominantly anti fighter fighters.

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DCS A8 is something in between at the current stage. It's not armored (except for the front oil cowl hood), nor does it have 30mm, nor C3 boost. But you can still take on a noob-to-average P51 player in SOW, I've done it and it's an interesting experience. Spit players not so much, mostly due to Spit's higher acceleration and a tight turn radius. IMHO most of the wwII single engine birds excelled at one thing only, you just need to find what it was. For our DCS A8 it's the ground pounding. Even without the 30mm you can still cause some serious havoc attacking the soft target convoys, troops, and bombers.

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Yeah, that's a curious thing: many ww2 testimonies praised the FW190, but in DCS (as in all other flight sims), it is really a lack-luster plane: not a good dogfighter, not a good speeder, and not even a so good b'n'zmer... but a real flying saw for ennemies. The Bf 109 seems to be better in each discipline. His father K. Tank talked about him as a battle horse: not the quickest, not the better, but easy to maintain. In a 1 vs 1 scenery, he's so lost. In our sims we search the better fighter (where it doesn't shine at all) without considering other real-world issues, maybe we miss something to "get it"? The cockpit layout is great, a high level of automation, more easy to land than a 109, maybe in numbers with appropriate tactics he did the trick? Hard to say... but clearly, not exciting performance in a solo scenery...


Edited by ZnarF
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When we get higher power rating things will get better, but at high alt it won't change a thing.


Edited by grafspee

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6 hours ago, grafspee said:

When we get higher power rating things will get better, but at high alt it won't change a thing.

 

I don't expect Anton to perform better at high alt, ceiling service of 11410 m, it should have 1730 hp, max speed should be 656 km/h at 4800 m and 685 km/h with injection MW50 at 5920 m, there were also A-8 with GM-1 and the most used, Erhöhte Notleistung emergency power system (C3 injection). If ED don't implement at least the C3 injection with proper stats then we are not talking about the "Fw 190 A-8" we are talking about a prototype and should be sold as such because you should include at least as other variant in-game the proper features of this aircraft.

 

Source: Javier Ormeño book about Fw 190

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3 minutes ago, Aesirhunter said:

 

I don't expect Anton to perform better at high alt, ceiling service of 11410 m, it should have 1730 hp, max speed should be 656 km/h at 4800 m and 685 km/h with injection MW50 at 5920 m, there were also A-8 with GM-1 and the most used, Erhöhte Notleistung emergency power system (C3 injection). If ED don't implement at least the C3 injection with proper stats then we are not talking about the "Fw 190 A-8" we are talking about a prototype and should be sold as such because you should include at least as other variant in-game the proper features of this aircraft.

 

Source: Javier Ormeño book about Fw 190

Don't think ED will implement complete fictional Aircraft like with MW50 that was appart from 5 Prototyps never build. Erhöhte Notleistung with C3 was used for Ground Attack Planes with only  allowed in the first Gear of the Supercharger.  Would not read that Book.

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K-4 and D-9 are king of at the edge in production numbers and ussage. I would like to see Anton getting late war power ratings increase. 1.56/1.65 ATA

 


Edited by grafspee

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Maybe an earlier Anton with less armour and weapons would help its lardiness.


Edited by Mr_sukebe

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43 minutes ago, MAD-MM said:

Don't think ED will implement complete fictional Aircraft like with MW50 that was appart from 5 Prototyps never build. Erhöhte Notleistung with C3 was used for Ground Attack Planes with only  allowed in the first Gear of the Supercharger.  Would not read that Book.

 

I am not saying ED should implement that version but at least the C3 injection one (which I said it was the most used version), I was just indicating the max speed with MW50 at 5920 m that was tested back in the day, let me know your sources too if you want mate.


Edited by Aesirhunter
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10 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Maybe an earlier Anton with less armour and weapons would help its lardiness.

 

Wait and see if they ever implement rüstsatz. A-8/R8 had 248,8 kg of armor while the one we have should have 137,8 kg

I would like to see earlier variants


Edited by Aesirhunter
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10 hours ago, ZnarF said:

Yeah, that's a curious thing: many ww2 testimonies praised the FW190, but in DCS (as in all other flight sims), it is really a lack-luster plane: not a good dogfighter, not a good speeder, and not even a so good b'n'zmer... but a real flying saw for ennemies. The Bf 109 seems to be better in each discipline. His father K. Tank talked about him as a battle horse: not the quickest, not the better, but easy to maintain. In a 1 vs 1 scenery, he's so lost. In our sims we search the better fighter (where it doesn't shine at all) without considering other real-world issues, maybe we miss something to "get it"? The cockpit layout is great, a high level of automation, more easy to land than a 109, maybe in numbers with appropriate tactics he did the trick? Hard to say... but clearly, not exciting performance in a solo scenery...

 


It seems Anton lovers need the A 3/4 and 1941 scenarios. 
 

The early Antons dominated the Hurricane and Spit V in late 1941.  After the A4 it becomes bigger and heavier but without the significantly more powerful radial it really needed. 

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1 hour ago, Aesirhunter said:

 

I am not saying ED should implement that version but at least the C3 injection one (which I said it was the most used version), I was just indicating the max speed with MW50 at 5920 m that was tested back in the day, let me know your sources too if you want mate.

 

Sorry when i was sounding a little bit rude but this comes up every Week and no one seems able to use the Forum Search Function. A8 "Fighter" emergency Power (erhöhte Notleistung) is simpley increased Boost without C3 1.58/1.65 Ata. Ground Attack Version was running with C3 but "only" in the lower Blower with 1.65 Ata.

And the Idear of Mw50 was completely dropped after the BM801 was not doing well with  it (cracked Pistons) and the effort of to build and refit was to much for 10-15 kmh Speed increase.

The Document was posted in some Thread 1-2 Weeks ago...

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28 minutes ago, MAD-MM said:

Sorry when i was sounding a little bit rude but this comes up every Week and no one seems able to use the Forum Search Function. A8 "Fighter" emergency Power (erhöhte Notleistung) is simpley increased Boost without C3 1.58/1.65 Ata. Ground Attack Version was running with C3 but "only" in the lower Blower with 1.65 Ata.

And the Idear of Mw50 was completely dropped after the BM801 was not doing well with  it (cracked Pistons) and the effort of to build and refit was to much for 10-15 kmh Speed increase.

The Document was posted in some Thread 1-2 Weeks ago...

So, you mean A-8 with 1.4ATA was standard?

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59 minutes ago, MAD-MM said:

Sorry when i was sounding a little bit rude but this comes up every Week and no one seems able to use the Forum Search Function. A8 "Fighter" emergency Power (erhöhte Notleistung) is simpley increased Boost without C3 1.58/1.65 Ata. Ground Attack Version was running with C3 but "only" in the lower Blower with 1.65 Ata.

And the Idear of Mw50 was completely dropped after the BM801 was not doing well with  it (cracked Pistons) and the effort of to build and refit was to much for 10-15 kmh Speed increase.

The Document was posted in some Thread 1-2 Weeks ago...

I guess when you talk about the ground attack version you mean the F-8 variant that was adapted to use 96 octane fuel (C3). I agree about MW50, about A-8/R4, GM 1 injection was implemented but it was not widely used, the most used rüstsatz for A-8 were: R2, R6, R7 and R8. And don't worry about that, all good.


Edited by Aesirhunter
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