RIO/WISO/Crew Packages in Store

[CsfDeathDemon]

Hey Everyone,

 

I would like to start a discussion that has been happening within my own gaming community.  I figured I would appeal to a larger audience and perhaps get ED's attention on this.  I have several friends who are interested in this game but don't want to fly/don't want to invest in a HOTAS right now.  They would gladly pay to play the game as a RIO/WISO or crew member, but balk at the price of aircraft that they won't be able to fly.

 

Here is my idea:

Each multi-crew aircraft has a reduced fee "crew seat" option that you can purchase.  Let's just say at half cost of the full craft.  This allows people who would normally not play and not pay anything a chance to come into the game, play with friends and start some fun multiplayer experiences.  That player could later go back and pay the difference to upgrade their "crew seat" to a full seat if they choose.

 

Right now with the F-14 on sale my friend and I have been flying together a lot.  He has no interest in flying the F-14, but really enjoys being a RIO.  I really don't care for the jester AI and don't want to fly with it.  My RIO would gladly play 30-40 USD to sit in a back seat and if he had the plane I would gladly pay 60 to fly around with him.  I have many other friends in my group that would like to just be door gunners and jump in for a mission or two.

 

I know I am pretty new to the game I have only been playing for a year, so perhaps my idea has been discussed or is not possible with the current way the game is designed.  I would like DCS to grow and continue to be a  success.  Please discuss with me what you think and up vote the topic if you agree.  

 

Thanks for your time

[JohnSB]

having an incremental advance in the ability to use the aircraft would get some people more interested, imo. the the rise of the multi crew aircraft coming i can see some people might want to just dabble in things like RIO, like your friend, and not fly an air frame. with the up coming Ai changes, "RTS" modes and changes to the mission editor we will see a rise in players that could just be here to hop into a Huey and shoot things with the M60. 

 

i know from personal experience i dont want to pay 60-90$ just to second seat and the AIs are not good enough to be as good as a player. so im in the boat of never wanting to just gun for someone and if i want to fly i have to use the AI because there are lots of people like me, who would rather fly. 

[Furiz]

I don't think it would pay off to developers to create such an option, cause they would have to develop an AI pilot for the backseater, since they can't sell them something they cant use on their own. I mean what if they can't find the pilot for their plane? yes your friend has you, but they would make that available for everyone, so that other guy that buys that option might not have someone like you, so they would want an AI which needs to be developed = spent money on.

 

So when you add all that up, they would be selling full fidelity module + new AI pilot for half price, doesn't sound profitable.

[CsfDeathDemon]

Furiz,

 

Quote

• I don't think it would pay off to developers to create such an option, cause they would have to develop an AI pilot for the backseater, since they can't sell them something they cant use on their own. I mean what if they can't find the pilot for their plane? yes your friend has you, but they would make that available for everyone, so that other guy that buys that option might not have someone like you, so they would want an AI which needs to be developed = spent money on.

 

So when you add all that up, they would be selling full fidelity module + new AI pilot for half price, doesn't sound profitable.

 

I was thinking about your point.  They simply put a message on it saying that you will need a human pilot in order to fly it.  No AI needed the idea would be that it is encouraging you to upgrade to the full model to fly it yourself.  If you want to ensure you can always play then you buy a full aircraft otherwise you buy a crew seat and realize that you might not get to play sometimes.  That player can also always jump i

n one of the free aircraft.  What do you think?

[Furiz]

Not sure if they can sell something like that, legally I mean.

But anyway, personally I like to fly the plane, that is why I'm here, I believe that there are people that like to sit in the back but those are really in small numbers to make such an option profitable for the devs.

In the end you have the 15 day free trial for any plane, so anyone can try and see what they like.

[CsfDeathDemon]

17 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Not sure if they can sell something like that, legally I mean.

But anyway, personally I like to fly the plane, that is why I'm here, I believe that there are people that like to sit in the back but those are really in small numbers to make such an option profitable for the devs.

In the end you have the 15 day free trial for any plane, so anyone can try and see what they like.

 

As long as the description lays out exactly what you are getting they can sell whatever they want.  15 days free trial is fantastic and I really appreciate that ED has added that in.  As I said right now I would buy the F-14 and my buddy would by a discounted RIO seat that would be $100.  I don't have any player stats or anyway to say how much they would make Vs the investment of making this work.  Only ED would have any clue.  However, here we can see what the community thinks.   Obviously like you I would rather fly and most people who are already playing would already fly that is why we play.  The idea is to bring more players into the community and hopefully grow the game without losing the integrity of the sim.

[Evoman]

I was just talking to a co worker the other day that is a big gamer about the new Apache. He thought it was very cool but that he would only be interested in being the gunner because he admitted that he lacks the talent to be a good pilot in other war games even though he kills it as a foot soldier. Even in the older Battlefield games I would always run into other players playing online that just wanted to be the gunner in the Apache and in other similar aircraft. Mostly because they sucked at flying.

So I don't see how someone that would just buy a crew seat feel limited without an AI if they can just go online and wait in the lobbies for an available crew seat. 

I for one would probably fly my Tomcat more often on line with a real person in the RIO seat than with the AI if they were readily available.

[CsfDeathDemon]

1 hour ago, Evoman said:

I was just talking to a co worker the other day that is a big gamer about the new Apache. He thought it was very cool but that he would only be interested in being the gunner because he admitted that he lacks the talent to be a good pilot in other war games even though he kills it as a foot soldier. Even in the older Battlefield games I would always run into other players playing online that just wanted to be the gunner in the Apache and in other similar aircraft. Mostly because they sucked at flying.

So I don't see how someone that would just buy a crew seat feel limited without an AI if they can just go online and wait in the lobbies for an available crew seat. 

I for one would probably fly my Tomcat more often on line with a real person in the RIO seat than with the AI if they were readily available.

 

Right?  I thought I couldn't be the only one that had friends who wanted to jump in a 2 seat but find the full cost of the air craft prohibitive when they are not going to fly the aircraft because they don't like flying.

[JohnSB]

im convinced the F-14 is better sitting in the Rio Seat telling Iceman where to go and you just launching stuff from the back seat. then if you have to dogfight, you can take pilot. 

[Furiz]

3 hours ago, JohnSB said:

im convinced the F-14 is better sitting in the Rio Seat telling Iceman where to go and you just launching stuff from the back seat. then if you have to dogfight, you can take pilot. 

 

You don't launch anything from the back seat, anything at all, you can only launch your back seat

[JohnSB]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

You don't launch anything from the back seat, anything at all, you can only launch your back seat

 

[Furiz]

This straw picking is amazing.

[Tippis]

44 minutes ago, Furiz said:

This straw picking is amazing.

You pretty much asked for that one, though…

And you can't really chastise people for doing the same thing you are.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

The problem with a multiplayer-only module for DCS, which is what this would be, is that MP is effectively restricted to Open Beta about 3/4 of the time. All the popular servers will only run the latest version, which is most often the OB. So unless someone is willing to be a Beta Tester and have dual installs of the game they wouldn't be able to use this WSO/RIO module most of the time. 

[Tippis]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with a multiplayer-only module for DCS, which is what this would be, is that MP is effectively restricted to Open Beta about 3/4 of the time.

You do realise that you can run multiplayer without connecting to one of those servers, right? That if for some reason you don't want to run Open Beta, you can still use your multiplayer-only module just fine. And that, in many cases, you wouldn't want to use a public server anyway? So that's not even remotely a problem.

 

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So unless someone is willing to be a Beta Tester and have dual installs of the game they wouldn't be able to use this WSO/RIO module most of the time. 

Also, you do realise that you never have to have dual installs, right? Especially not if you run the beta branch.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Tippis

[cfrag]

While this may be an interesting discussion I wonder if it's not simpler if ED simply started selling a two-license pack for the price of 1.5 licenses. 

[Evoman]

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

While this may be an interesting discussion I wonder if it's not simpler if ED simply started selling a two-license pack for the price of 1.5 licenses. 

That would be great for those that live in the same house hold like a father and son, two siblings or two close friends. But it would not be useful to bring in other new friends if you already own the module. And even if you did not already own a module you would be limited to bringing in only one friend. That is why a crew seat license is the most ideal for those that don't even have an interest in flying.

[Furiz]

25 minutes ago, Evoman said:

That would be great for those that live in the same house hold like a father and son, two siblings or two close friends. But it would not be useful to bring in other new friends if you already own the module. And even if you did not already own a module you would be limited to bringing in only one friend. That is why a crew seat license is the most ideal for those that don't even have an interest in flying.

 

Those that don't have interest in flying are not gonna be buying anything related to DCS, people that come here are usually interested in flying.

I know from my own experience, that I wouldn't be buying anything or even googleing about flight sims if I didn't want to fly. And there is no trial 2 weeks period or a back seat of a plane that can tell me if I want to fly or not. I know that before even coming to DCS.

 

And I know for a fact that people will not buy stuff for 30 or 40 bucks just to sit in the back seat and find targets for the pilot to shoot at.

[cfrag]

22 minutes ago, Evoman said:

That would be great for those that live in the same house hold like a father and son, two siblings or two close friends. But it would not be useful to bring in other new friends if you already own the module. And even if you did not already own a module you would be limited to bringing in only one friend. That is why a crew seat license is the most ideal for those that don't even have an interest in flying.

 

I don't follow. The OP made it sound like they wanted a 'restricted RIO' license bound to a single person that can later be upgraded to full. I suggest simply getting two full licenses instead of one with a discount on the second license if bought in a package. Why would that only apply to family members or close friends? 

 

Anyway, I believe people are overthinking this. I don't think there is a real market for crew-only licenses, seeing that a) the MP player market is (heartbreakingly) small, and b) I seriously doubt that there will be many people willing to 'just' learn a crew spot (remember - all training has to be MP, always. You can't RIO-only in SP). There will be some, yes. But not enough to build this into a product category.

[Tippis]

59 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Anyway, I believe people are overthinking this. I don't think there is a real market for crew-only licenses, seeing that a) the MP player market is (heartbreakingly) small, and b) I seriously doubt that there will be many people willing to 'just' learn a crew spot (remember - all training has to be MP, always. You can't RIO-only in SP). There will be some, yes. But not enough to build this into a product category.

Quite. Chances are that a huge portion of the benefits with this kind of feature could be handled via the trial program. If it's that good to be in the back, it will show within that period and then be worth-while to pay the price of admission for. Alternatively, if there is a genuine argument to be made for the backseat not being worth it, it almost sounds like it would be better to just allow for a trial extension — you can't fly it, but you can pick backseat slots (assuming the server is set to allow trial accounts).

 

It comes down to a pretty standard cost-benefit analysis in that case: how much is lost in sales from backseat-only people staying free vs. how much is gained from a potential increased interest in flying the module now that there are plenty of jester replacements?

[CsfDeathDemon]

On 9/11/2021 at 3:02 PM, SharpeXB said:

The problem with a multiplayer-only module for DCS, which is what this would be, is that MP is effectively restricted to Open Beta about 3/4 of the time. All the popular servers will only run the latest version, which is most often the OB. So unless someone is willing to be a Beta Tester and have dual installs of the game they wouldn't be able to use this WSO/RIO module most of the time. 

Sharpe not sure I understand this.  Are you saying that a RIO only seat would not be able to work on the beta build?  

 

9 hours ago, cfrag said:

While this may be an interesting discussion I wonder if it's not simpler if ED simply started selling a two-license pack for the price of 1.5 licenses. 

That could also work especially if you could gift the discounted license, but it does have some serious limitations.  Heatblur does this but the discount is about 10 bucks so not much of a discount.

 

5 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

Those that don't have interest in flying are not gonna be buying anything related to DCS, people that come here are usually interested in flying.

I know from my own experience, that I wouldn't be buying anything or even googleing about flight sims if I didn't want to fly. And there is no trial 2 weeks period or a back seat of a plane that can tell me if I want to fly or not. I know that before even coming to DCS.

 

And I know for a fact that people will not buy stuff for 30 or 40 bucks just to sit in the back seat and find targets for the pilot to shoot at.

Partially agree partially disagree with this point.  People with zero interest in aviation will not buy anything close to DCS.  Some people enjoy all the aviation aspects that DCS has to offer but do not want to fly.  Some people don't want to invest in a HOTAS but would enjoy gunning.  We could as a community just say "hey if you don't want to fly a plane you're not welcome in our game."  but that feels kinda shitty.  We could get more people interested by experiencing the game fully and they might decide later that they want to try flying.  Also there has already been one person in this forum that said they would pay 30 to sit exclusively in the back seat.  3 other friends of mine said they would happily pay 20 to sit in the side doors of the huey and gun targets from the side doors(now they can do that when it goes on sale which is their plan, but they have no intention of ever flying the thing)

 

4 hours ago, Tippis said:

Quite. Chances are that a huge portion of the benefits with this kind of feature could be handled via the trial program. If it's that good to be in the back, it will show within that period and then be worth-while to pay the price of admission for. Alternatively, if there is a genuine argument to be made for the backseat not being worth it, it almost sounds like it would be better to just allow for a trial extension — you can't fly it, but you can pick backseat slots (assuming the server is set to allow trial accounts).

 

It comes down to a pretty standard cost-benefit analysis in that case: how much is lost in sales from backseat-only people staying free vs. how much is gained from a potential increased interest in flying the module now that there are plenty of jester replacements?

Exactly what I was saying at the end of the first post.  It is really hard for us as a community to know how many people use the back seat, how many only play free modules ect.  Only ED has those metrics... at least I hope they do.  I think the trial program is great and for me as someone who likes to fly and owns several modules it gives me time to try an aircraft before I buy it.  I am exactly the type of person DCS is built and marketed for.  Problem is we are  a small group of players within a small group of players.  This opens up the game a little more to people who might be hesitant to fly, brings in more players which is better and maybe those people decide to come fly which would be awesome.  Only ED could say if the work to make this is worth the costs.

[SharpeXB]

43 minutes ago, CsfDeathDemon said:

Sharpe not sure I understand this.  Are you saying that a RIO only seat would not be able to work on the beta build?  

What I meant was a multiplayer-only module would essentially require the owner to run the OB about 3/4 of the time since that’s where all the players are. If for whatever reason they didn’t want to run OB they’d be practically unable to use it. 

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What I meant was a multiplayer-only module would essentially require the owner to run the OB about 3/4 of the time since that’s where all the players are. If for whatever reason they didn’t want to run OB they’d be practically unable to use it. 

Lolno.

That's not how multiplayer works; that's not what is required; and that is not what dictates what you can and cannot use.

They'd be able to use it just fine. You should know this already since it has been explained to you on multiple occasions.

[CsfDeathDemon]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What I meant was a multiplayer-only module would essentially require the owner to run the OB about 3/4 of the time since that’s where all the players are. If for whatever reason they didn’t want to run OB they’d be practically unable to use it. 

Oh Ok I see what you mean.  That could be a blocker for some.  I only play on one server so I just always keep current with that, plus I find the Beta is usually pretty stable anyhow so we just run that.

[cfrag]

On 9/12/2021 at 11:10 PM, SharpeXB said:

What I meant was a multiplayer-only module would essentially require the owner to run the OB about 3/4 of the time since that’s where all the players are. If for whatever reason they didn’t want to run OB they’d be practically unable to use it. 

 

This pre-assumes a couple of points that need substantiation:

• There are more open (i.e. they accept anon players) OB servers running than there are on Release (probably true, surely seems so to me)
• OB servers are more frequented than Release and there are more populated Tomcats with open RIO seats on OB (no idea - but let's be honest: there surely are lots of empty (un-populated) OB servers, and those that are populated don't always have a Tomcat slot, and if they do have such a slot, it's rarely filled (unsurprisingly, the most common airframes on open servers are the Bug, Falcon and Eagle). If you can't find a Tomcat driver who is willing to accept you as RIO, the sheer number of servers running is not helping. If R has fewer servers but they all are filled to the brim with Tomcats looking for a RIO, R might be the place to be. Again: I have no idea about the real number distribution, and have no reason to assume that there is a differential between R and OB, but for now, we are simply assuming that there is no R bias, or perhaps even an OB bias for Tomcat - I'd love to see some numbers) 
• You as a RIO routinely choose new servers (don't know about this; many pilots stick to very few servers) - If you always fly on the same server, all you need to find is one server, and you are good. Personally, when I fly from public servers, I tend to stick to a few - the trick is finding those in the first place.
• You don't play private public dedicated servers [Edit: silly mistake, apologies - I meant public, dedicated servers]- I have no idea about the OB/R distribution, but if you regularly train with a friend, it's safe to assume you two run the same DCS version, and if you host yourself, that question is moot anyway  . 

It would be interesting to find out how many people are flying on private (ad-hoc self-hosted 'Multiplayer') servers versus dedicated ones. 90% of the time I MP I fly on private servers with my friends. But that is just one data point.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by cfrag