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Maybe MANPADS are op?!


Raviar
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I believe manpads are abit overpowered, talked to few veteran pilots who attended in war (as well as my own very close relative as a fighter pilot who was in war) and I believe MAYBE the MANPADs are OP in DCS as they mostly use to shoot downs helicopters or slow maneuverable aircraft as the manpads missile trajectory is not as accurate and persist as SAM sites such as Strela.

 

here you can check the list of some of airplane which get shootdown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_shootdowns

 

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27 minutes ago, Raviar said:

I believe manpads are abit overpowered, talked to few veteran pilots who attended in war (as well as my own very close relative as a fighter pilot who was in war) and I believe MAYBE the MANPADs are OP in DCS as they mostly use to shoot downs helicopters or slow maneuverable aircraft as the manpads missile trajectory is not as accurate and persist as SAM sites such as Strela.

 

here you can check the list of some of airplane which get shootdown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_shootdowns

 

 

Uhm, isn't that exactly how MANPADs in DCS behave? I find them pretty useless against fast movers. I often see jets flying flying past a MANPAD in a straight line without dropping flares and the missile just passes behind the jet without any harm done.


Edited by QuiGon
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1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Uhm, isn't that exactly how MANPADs in DCS behave? I find them pretty useless against fast movers. I often see jets flying flying past a MANPAD in a straight line without dropping flares and the missile just passes behind the jet without any harm done.

 

not really!
I will attach some tacviews

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Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

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1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

 

Uhm, isn't that exactly how MANPADs in DCS behave? I find them pretty useless against fast movers. I often see jets flying flying past a MANPAD in a straight line without dropping flares and the missile just passes behind the jet without any harm done.

 

 

I also have the experience that they often just miss a maneuvering jet. that is also true for the slow a-10c.

however, i also sympathize with the notion of the OP, as i also think that they are still extremely dangerous - compared to much bigger (and more expensive) systems. if this is realsitic, i don't know. i think the manpads we have are all newer generations than the "big" IR SAMs, so maybe they are just that much better in flare rejection f.e..

 

i just wish we could get earlier generation manpads, that would provide mission designer with a more relaxed ground threat...

My personal wishlist after half a decade with DCS: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=216873

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Yeah, MANPADS are easy to avoid, but they can be quite deadly if they surprise you. The big deal about them is that the launcher can literally be anywhere. A guy with a tube is notoriously hard to spot from the air.

 

The reason they're mostly used against helos and slower aircraft like A-10 is that they're flying low. An F-16 or F-18 has, IRL, very little reason to go below the MANPADS' ceiling, and it doesn't stay there long if it does get below it. Another good spot for them is shooting at aircraft coming in to land or taking off. This is the primary limitation, not tracking or damage.

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I need to mention I THINK the evading (dodging ) the missile are some how bind to operator level, means the experience somehow define the difficulty!

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MANPADS are fine.   Any less capability and they'll be useless.

 

If you don't want to be hit by them, stay above their effective altitude like pilots do IRL


Edited by GGTharos
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''Issues'' based on a feeling usually do not gain much traction in this community. Back your feelings up with numbers and maybe people will take you seriously.

 

If you get hit by a MANPAD it will be lethal, nothing weird about that. But in the first place, if you get hit by a MANPAD in a jet, then its probably the pilot who is at fault.

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23 minutes ago, MrDieing said:

''Issues'' based on a feeling usually do not gain much traction in this community. Back your feelings up with numbers and maybe people will take you seriously.

 

If you get hit by a MANPAD it will be lethal, nothing weird about that. But in the first place, if you get hit by a MANPAD in a jet, then its probably the pilot who is at fault.

 

31 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

MANPADS are fine.   Any less capability and they'll be useless.

 

If you don't want to be hit by them, stay above their effective altitude like pilots do IRL

 

1st of all, dont jump to the conclusion and behave like "know it all", im talking base on statistic not feeling, 2nd I stated as MAYBE, 3rd the trajectory of the MANPAD doesnt look like manpad in real world! 4th its not about be shoot down and feeling, so fly higher, its about realism!

I am comparing the manpad missile trajectory and turn rate, G .. in DCS vs SA-13 in DCS! which both are almost same !


Edited by Raviar

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F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
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33 minutes ago, Raviar said:

1st of all, dont jump to the conclusion and behave like "know it all", im talking base on statistic not feeling, 2nd I stated as MAYBE, 3rd the trajectory of the MANPAD doesnt look like manpad in real world! 4th its not about be shoot down and feeling, so fly higher, its about realism!

 

Flying higher than the MANPADS effective altitude is absolutely realism.   That is done because MANPADS are dangerous.

And sure, the trajectory doesn't look the same - the in-game MANPADS operator doesn't superelevate or aim with lead as he's supposed to, and I doubt the guidance algorithms are exactly the same.

 

33 minutes ago, Raviar said:

I am comparing the manpad missile trajectory and turn rate, G .. in DCS vs SA-13 in DCS! which both are almost same !

 

Where do you have turn rate/g readouts in IRL?

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15 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

Flying higher than the MANPADS effective altitude is absolutely realism.   That is done because MANPADS are dangerous.

And sure, the trajectory doesn't look the same - the in-game MANPADS operator doesn't superelevate or aim with lead as he's supposed to, and I doubt the guidance algorithms are exactly the same.

 

 

Where do you have turn rate/g readouts in IRL?

 

With 4 to 5G manuver without flares, the manpad should not be able to track! 

 

In desert storm Viper pilots dodged 6 iraqi sa-6 missiles without Countermeasures by 5 to 6 G manuver in medium-high alt! Good luck to do so in DCS! 

 

The manpads will track the aircraft in most of scenarios with high speed high G turn without flares in DCS!

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4 hours ago, Raviar said:

With 4 to 5G manuver without flares, the manpad should not be able to track! 

 

Says who?

 

4 hours ago, Raviar said:

In desert storm Viper pilots dodged 6 iraqi sa-6 missiles without Countermeasures by 5 to 6 G manuver in medium-high alt! Good luck to do so in DCS! 

 

Fun fact, MANPADS are low altitude weapons and are not effective at medium and high altitudes, so ... ?

 

4 hours ago, Raviar said:

The manpads will track the aircraft in most of scenarios with high speed high G turn without flares in DCS!

 

You can easily out-maneuver MANPADS if you have altitude and/or speed.

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2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

Says who?

 

the real pilots who were in the war and get shot by Rolands and Manpads! and dodged with manuver! 

 

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Fun fact, MANPADS are low altitude weapons and are not effective at medium and high altitudes, so ... ?

Maybe you didnt read my msg carefully! it was about SA-6 , or maybe what you are saying is  I cant compare these two together! i didn't get your point 

 

 

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

You can easily out-maneuver MANPADS if you have altitude and/or speed.

in 4000 to 5000 thousands feet with 400 to 450 knots without flare you can barely dodge the manpads without flares! says tacview!

as an experiment try it ur self! put two manpads as excellent, pick a hornet pretend u dont know about the location of manpads, pass over the area less than a mile or two , manuver once u see the missile trail, try it for 10 times and see it your self how many time u may survive without flaring! 

 

The manpads created against rotary not jets! 


Edited by Raviar
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Modules:
F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
Wish List: F-4 | Super Hornet | A-37
Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

Gear: TM HOTAS Warthog | TM TPR Rudder | TrackIR5+ClipPro | CPU: I9-9900K | GPU: Asus 2080TI ROG Strix O11G | RAM: 4x16GB G.Skill TridentZ 3200 | M/B: Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero WIFI AC | HDD: M2.PCIE Samsung 970 Evo+ | PSU: Corsair HX1200 | Cooling: NH-D15 | Monitor: LG 4K 27"

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3 minutes ago, Raviar said:

the real pilots who were in the war and get shot by Rolands and Manpads! and dodged with manuver! 

 

This doesn't anything for DCS.  Real pilots say a lot of things, without details those things are mostly useless.

 

3 minutes ago, Raviar said:

I am sure you didnt read my msg carefully! it was about SA-6 

 

SA-2 with ECM and countermeasures, probably supported by an SoJ.

 

3 minutes ago, Raviar said:

in 4000 to 5000 thousands feet with 400 to 450 knots without flare you can barely dodge the manpads without flares! says tacview!

 

That's how it should be.  They're effective up to that altitude, because this is low altitude.

 

3 minutes ago, Raviar said:

as an experiment try it ur self! put two manpads as excellent, pick a hornet pretend u dont know about the location of manpads, pass over the area less than a mile or two , manuver once u see the missile trail, try it for 10 times and see it your self how many time u may survive without flaring! 

 

The manpads created against rotary not jets! 

 

Wrong.   MANPADS couldn't even effectively engage helicopters early in their history, and they were used against jets.   But those old SA-7s and Redeyes aren't what you're fighting, much like an AIM-7M doesn't experience the failures of an AIM-7D.

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6 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

This doesn't anything for DCS.  Real pilots say a lot of things, without details those things are mostly useless.

 

 

SA-2 with ECM and countermeasures, probably supported by an SoJ.

 

 

That's how it should be.  They're effective up to that altitude, because this is low altitude.

 

 

Wrong.   MANPADS couldn't even effectively engage helicopters early in their history, and they were used against jets.   But those old SA-7s and Redeyes aren't what you're fighting, much like an AIM-7M doesn't experience the failures of an AIM-7D.

 

 

so the pilots are wrong and armchair pilot is right! ok.

 

now you are mixing stuff together. i didnt talked about SA-2! there were not ECM! u dont even know the whole story and yet judging!

 

i know what the low alt is! 
with respect I am not going to reply you back in this thread!

 


Edited by Raviar
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4 minutes ago, Raviar said:

so the pilots are wrong and armchair pilot is right! ok.

 

That's not what I said; I guess you don't know what goes into simulating a missile so you can't understand.

 

4 minutes ago, Raviar said:

now you are mixing stuff together. i didnt talked about SA-2! there were not ECM! u dont even know the whole story and yet judging!

 

I know the story,  this is an old video that has been talked about and analyzed six ways to Sunday.  It's an SA-2, those F-16s are loaded with ECM pods and very likely supported by SoJ which is procedure when entering a SAM protected environment.

As well, those operators would often launch the missiles ballistic, meaning unguided, hoping to guide them at the last moment in the hopes of avoiding retaliation by SEAD aircraft.

 

4 minutes ago, Raviar said:

i know what the low alt is! 
with respect I am not going to reply you back in this thread!

 

Ok, sure.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

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Modules:
F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
Wish List: F-4 | Super Hornet | A-37
Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

Gear: TM HOTAS Warthog | TM TPR Rudder | TrackIR5+ClipPro | CPU: I9-9900K | GPU: Asus 2080TI ROG Strix O11G | RAM: 4x16GB G.Skill TridentZ 3200 | M/B: Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero WIFI AC | HDD: M2.PCIE Samsung 970 Evo+ | PSU: Corsair HX1200 | Cooling: NH-D15 | Monitor: LG 4K 27"

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here are another couple of tacviews which i flew over the manpads purposely, clean hornet, fully aware there is manpad, prepare my self for flare, throttle idle and manuver

 

most the time i get shoot down by manpads!

Tacview-20210909-124725-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-124526-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-124159-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-124057-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-120129-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-115921-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-115805-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-115510-DCS.zip.acmi

Modules:
F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
Wish List: F-4 | Super Hornet | A-37
Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

Gear: TM HOTAS Warthog | TM TPR Rudder | TrackIR5+ClipPro | CPU: I9-9900K | GPU: Asus 2080TI ROG Strix O11G | RAM: 4x16GB G.Skill TridentZ 3200 | M/B: Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero WIFI AC | HDD: M2.PCIE Samsung 970 Evo+ | PSU: Corsair HX1200 | Cooling: NH-D15 | Monitor: LG 4K 27"

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here are another couple of tacviews which i flew over the SA-13 ( we all know how deadly they are) purposely, clean hornet, fully aware there is SA-13, waited for the launch, definitely when we get 13 on RWR we do not commit, however its much easier to dodge compare to manpads, get confused by flares, barely can stay in maneuver, 70%-80% of success rate to dodge them compare to manpads, while I got shoot down by manpads about 80%-90% exactly opposite number!

 

Both SA-13 and Manpads set to excellent, all are heading to north, the sun is on east.

Tacview-20210909-130202-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-130017-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-125854-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-125714-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-125416-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-125221-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-125130-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210909-124936-DCS-F-18 Cluster test2.zip.acmi

Modules:
F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
Wish List: F-4 | Super Hornet | A-37
Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

Gear: TM HOTAS Warthog | TM TPR Rudder | TrackIR5+ClipPro | CPU: I9-9900K | GPU: Asus 2080TI ROG Strix O11G | RAM: 4x16GB G.Skill TridentZ 3200 | M/B: Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero WIFI AC | HDD: M2.PCIE Samsung 970 Evo+ | PSU: Corsair HX1200 | Cooling: NH-D15 | Monitor: LG 4K 27"

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6 hours ago, Raviar said:

here are another couple of tacviews which i flew over the SA-13 ( we all know how deadly they are) purposely, clean hornet, fully aware there is SA-13, waited for the launch, definitely when we get 13 on RWR we do not commit, however its much easier to dodge compare to manpads, get confused by flares, barely can stay in maneuver, 70%-80% of success rate to dodge them compare to manpads, while I got shoot down by manpads about 80%-90% exactly opposite number!

 

 

Why are you comparing them to SA-13?  A bunch of MANPADS have a more advanced seeker and autopilot than SA-13 missiles.  It's an incorrect comparison.

Get data on the specific MANPADS, then ED will do something.


Edited by GGTharos

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SA-13 are very easy targets... for choppers! They usually don't see us coming and we can even get close enough to end them with some 30mm. 😄

MANPADS are deadly if unspotted. That's why we usually have a scout operation prior any attack one. But with such a short range, once spotted they will not live long enough to do some harm. 

On a fun note, it's always an hilarious experience do drop off 2 or 3 manpads in a field with a Huey and see those high flyers scattered away. 🤣 Excellent to keep them busy doing something else than using choppers as target practice. 


Edited by BaD CrC
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Also to bear in mind is that DCS is a little funny with the particular kind of MANPADs your using.

 

In DCS there are 2 Igla systems:

  • MANPADS SA-18 Igla "Grouse"
  • MANPADS SA-18 Igla-S "Grouse"

The thing is though, both systems fire the same missile, called "Igla-S" according to the in-game info bar (presumably referring to the 9M342 missile that the Igla-S uses), so treat both of them as being the Igla-S'

 

As a side note, I'm unsure what the first system is supposed to be, the 9K38 "Igla" [SA-18 "Grouse"] (which should fire the 9M39 missile) or the 9K310E "Igla-1E" [SA-16 "Gimlet"] (which should fire the 9M313 missile), the mission editor says it's the former, but tacview says it's the latter. Though in light of the Igla and Igla-S firing the same "Igla-S" missile, it doesn't really matter, whichever it's supposed to be, it's treated as an Igla-S system as far as DCS is concerned, owing to the missile.

 

EDIT: Gah! It gets even more confusing! The missile the in-game info bar refers to as the "Igla-S" has 9M39 written on it - the missile for the 9K38 Igla, and is called "9M39 Igla" in the encyclopedia! Which missile is it supposed to be?

 

According to wiki, the 9K35M3 "Strela-10M3" [SA-13 "Gopher"] that you used for comparion is from 1981, though there's a bit of contradictory information on what missile it should fire, wiki says the 9M35M and ausairpower says the 9M333 (though wiki says that's a 1989 missile belonging to the 9K35M4 "Strela-10M4") the 9K38 Igla is from 1983, the 9K310E Igla-1E from 1981 and the 9K338 Igla-S from 2004.

 

If the missile used is in fact the 9M342, I'd expect it to have higher countermeasure resistance than the Strela-10M3.

 

And as another side note, DCS gets the US DoD and NATO reporting name wrong for the Igla-S, which is actually referred to as the SA-24 "Grinch", and not the SA-18 "Grouse" as with the Igla. The GRAU and native designation being 9K338 "Igla-S".


Edited by Northstar98

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1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

Manpads are super deadly. 

They completely screwed up Su-25's campaign in Avganistan in Soviet-Afgan war.

 

Well, in DCS the Su-25 is pretty much immune against MANPADs, because of its IR jammer.


Edited by QuiGon

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Manpads are super deadly. 

They completely screwed up Su-25's campaign in Avganistan in Soviet-Afgan war.

you might be right! but how deadly? thats very vague. deadly against which kind of aircraft?
UH-1 flying at 200ft AGL with 80 knots?
KA-50 flying at 200ft 200knots?
F-86 at 2000ft 300knots?

Warthog at 3000ft in the orbit looking for target at 180~200 knots?
Harrier at 3000 ft 350knots?
Hornet at 3000ft at 550 knots?
Viper at 3000ft at 600knots?
Viggen at 200ft at 600knots?
 

I dont have doubt on it against rotary or low speed attacker/fighters, Or against fast jet which is flying at straight and level flight without any maneuver!  but against fast jet with 5G to 6G and above! maneuvering wildly to the left and right at 500knots drooping dozens of flare and still hit by manpads! its not realistic to me!

 

I am trying to demonstrate how deadly these manpads are compare to SA-13 as it can be most close similar missiles and system in DCS! to me the manpads are deadlier than Strella10 which I believe it shouldnt ! may be I am wrong !

 

definitely the hornet flares effectiveness reduced after ED introduce the new chaff/flares to hornet, however there wasnt much differences in result compare to Viper and Mirage when I tested it.
 

Modules:
F-18C | F-16C | A-10CII | F-14B | F-5E | AJS-37 | M-2000C | UH-1H | L-39 | F-86F | Spitfire | P-51 | P-47 | FC3 | CA | SC | WWII AP
Wish List: F-4 | Super Hornet | A-37
Terrains: Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | Normandy | Channel

Gear: TM HOTAS Warthog | TM TPR Rudder | TrackIR5+ClipPro | CPU: I9-9900K | GPU: Asus 2080TI ROG Strix O11G | RAM: 4x16GB G.Skill TridentZ 3200 | M/B: Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero WIFI AC | HDD: M2.PCIE Samsung 970 Evo+ | PSU: Corsair HX1200 | Cooling: NH-D15 | Monitor: LG 4K 27"

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