Flight Model Exploit? Wing Sweep Manual Override in BFM.

[Redliner7]

In recent Growling Sidewinder videos with the Tomcat, he has kept the wings manually overridden in full extend for BFMs and has found a little bit of a turning advantage over his adversaries.  I tried this myself and do find that it turns a bit better...but as far as I know, real life Tomcat pilots didn't really do this, probably for good reason.

My question:  Is this an FM exploit?  Is this accurate?  Personally, I'd prefer accuracy (a'la flaps damage...) rather than exploiting a cheat to win...so if damage is to occur, I'd rather have the damage then a buffed Tomcat (which I appreciate the fact that HB has valued accuracy as well in the past).

TIA!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

As explained in the GR's F14 dog fight how to series, iirc, the wing sweep control mechanism is mechanical, which means that one can "jam" open the wings up to a certain speed and the wings will likely to sweep back. In the same vien, the wings cannot be forced open at high speed either. And a pilot sees a Turkey merging in high speed with wings opened, the pilot will choose a different tactics. Also, GR's videos mention that keeping the wings open cannot change the stall speed and the adverse effect of high AoA, it just make the plane turn "a bit"  better. I see it as using the maneuver flap which helps but not making the plane invincible. It may be gamey but I don't see it as cheating.

 

And from the same video channel you mention, which is a great channel btw, even with this technique, there is no sure win, skillful pilots in MiG-29, F-16C, M-2000C, and F-15C can still given the Turkey a run for its money.

Edited September 3, 2021 by VFGiPJP

[Spurts]

The GS videos are not using MANUAL wing sweep, which is a normal function on the throttle to select FWD/AFT/BMB/AUT.  None of these settings override the mach scheduler.  I.E. using BMB mode will set the wings to 55 deg sweep unless you are above the mach at which 55 would normally be called, then the wings will sweep aft of 55 as normal. 

 

What he is doing is using an OVERRIDE that most people only use to put the wings into oversweep for parking.  This WILL ignore the mach scheduler.  I fiddled with this a while back to see the effects.  Results?

 

Top speed at low level was ~0.95M.  Too much drag.  When I pulled back on the stick the way I normally would I spiked to 17G and lost both wings.  This, like Manual flaps above 200kt, is not some novel hack or exploit.  It's just stupid and shows a lack of understanding of the jet.  Corner speed is ~320KIAS.  Anyone care to guess what AUT sweep would be at that speed for most altitudes you dogfight in?  22-25.  You are already forward.  setting the Override to forward does NOT help you at real cornering speeds.  Just leave it in auto and fly the dang jet.

 

You see a guy rating in the Tomcat and suspect he dropped his flaps?  Well they are jammed now and his wings are stuck like that so speed up and start climbing because he has more drag now than he knows what to do with.   A jam-winged Tomcat might be "unbeatable" in a horizontal fight but is going to suck in an energy fight.   The only time to use full flaps is when you are in a flat scissors under 180kt or going over the top of a vertical maneuver under 180 kts.  In the latter case, if I am uphill with intent to go over and Jester calls out a speed under 200, I drop the barn doors (for nose stability more than anything), and I pull them up as soon as my nose crosses the horizon to downhill and he starts calling speed over 150.

 

I will test top speed with full jammed flaps maybe tonight.

[Redliner7]

21 minutes ago, Spurts said:

The GS videos are not using MANUAL wing sweep, which is a normal function on the throttle to select FWD/AFT/BMB/AUT.  None of these settings override the mach scheduler.  I.E. using BMB mode will set the wings to 55 deg sweep unless you are above the mach at which 55 would normally be called, then the wings will sweep aft of 55 as normal. 

 

What he is doing is using an OVERRIDE that most people only use to put the wings into oversweep for parking.  This WILL ignore the mach scheduler.  I fiddled with this a while back to see the effects.  Results?

 

Top speed at low level was ~0.95M.  Too much drag.  When I pulled back on the stick the way I normally would I spiked to 17G and lost both wings.  This, like Manual flaps above 200kt, is not some novel hack or exploit.  It's just stupid and shows a lack of understanding of the jet.  Corner speed is ~320KIAS.  Anyone care to guess what AUT sweep would be at that speed for most altitudes you dogfight in?  22-25.  You are already forward.  setting the Override to forward does NOT help you at real cornering speeds.  Just leave it in auto and fly the dang jet.

 

You see a guy rating in the Tomcat and suspect he dropped his flaps?  Well they are jammed now and his wings are stuck like that so speed up and start climbing because he has more drag now than he knows what to do with.   A jam-winged Tomcat might be "unbeatable" in a horizontal fight but is going to suck in an energy fight.   The only time to use full flaps is when you are in a flat scissors under 180kt or going over the top of a vertical maneuver under 180 kts.  In the latter case, if I am uphill with intent to go over and Jester calls out a speed under 200, I drop the barn doors (for nose stability more than anything), and I pull them up as soon as my nose crosses the horizon to downhill and he starts calling speed over 150.

 

I will test top speed with full jammed flaps maybe tonight.

I agree; I don't use flaps when fighting anyways.  And I'm only trying to make notice a possible  FM miss if it is indeed missed by the HB team at all...  

 

Either way, my test was pretty basic - fighting the JF17 in the Marianas mission was a lot harder in auto wing and a significantly easier with the wings in mechanical forward override.  I was able to pull the jet above 400knts with the wings wide open -  I am pretty spot on with AOA and achieve about 15 units as desired since the only jet I fly is the Tomcat so I didn't break the jet at all.  Having said that, I'm not a very good dogfighter and that Marianas JF17 BFM mission always caused me problems until I tried the manual override which made that mission super easy...I could beat it in a 1 circle super easy which wasn't possible in auto-wing.

My point is that I'm trying to see if the jet is supposed to break earlier with manual over ride while pulling hard at over 400kts and if this was an FM oversight by HB, which I'd prefer to be corrected if it is (ie, I'd rather the break the jet then have the jet be unbeatable.)

I don't know about GRs videos, I don't watch that channel.

[Spurts]

No, you are still well within the strength of the wings.

[Spurts]

Wing Auto, 816KTAS at SL

WIng OVERRIDE, 644KTAS at SL

FULL FLAP, 487KTAS at SL (SHAKY!)

 

in a lightweight B model in full AB.

[Redliner7]

Affirm, everything is fine then.  Glad it's accurate then, I didn't want to see a FM cheat exploited was my main concern.

I get the feeling that the real life Tom could probably turn better at higher speeds w/ the wings open like that due to the additional lift at the expense of roll but it was probably never done bc it's a complicated  manual over-ride process and the CADC in the Tom probably didn't take in AOA data either for maximum turning ability at higher speeds.  

[Nexus-6]

I asked a similar question a couple of years ago, and this was Victory205's response to me:

 

"You left the wings in Auto, period, for air combat. The rest is artificial BS in a training environment. IF some nimrod hit the pass with the wings swept fulyl aft, you could easily tell by the closure rate and attitude as he went by (usually this was attempted when someone was too low on fuel to use AB for the last engagement).

 

We used to hear F15 drivers talk about how they could tell our energy state from our sweep value, then I'd ask "so what is the wing sweep schedule"? Not one had a clue. OK, "What is the wing sweep value that would preclude a vertical killing move?" Uh, well, um, not really sure there sir...

 

The problem is that the Tomcat could do a loop from a very low energy state, down to 180 KIAS for the B/D, where the wings would be fully forward. Up to .82 Mach or so, the wings moved very little, a flat curve that didn't say much about velocity. From .8 to .9, they'd sweep fully aft. Anywhere in that regime, there was plenty of energy to extend and leave.

 

So the whole wing sweep issue is a lot of fighter pilot at the bar bullshit.

 

Same crap you still hear about the AIM54C. I still have F15 guys try to tell me what the missile could and could not do."

[Redliner7]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:11 AM, Nexus-6 said:

I asked a similar question a couple of years ago, and this was Victory205's response to me:

 

"You left the wings in Auto, period, for air combat. The rest is artificial BS in a training environment. IF some nimrod hit the pass with the wings swept fulyl aft, you could easily tell by the closure rate and attitude as he went by (usually this was attempted when someone was too low on fuel to use AB for the last engagement).

 

We used to hear F15 drivers talk about how they could tell our energy state from our sweep value, then I'd ask "so what is the wing sweep schedule"? Not one had a clue. OK, "What is the wing sweep value that would preclude a vertical killing move?" Uh, well, um, not really sure there sir...

 

The problem is that the Tomcat could do a loop from a very low energy state, down to 180 KIAS for the B/D, where the wings would be fully forward. Up to .82 Mach or so, the wings moved very little, a flat curve that didn't say much about velocity. From .8 to .9, they'd sweep fully aft. Anywhere in that regime, there was plenty of energy to extend and leave.

 

So the whole wing sweep issue is a lot of fighter pilot at the bar bullshit.

 

Same crap you still hear about the AIM54C. I still have F15 guys try to tell me what the missile could and could not do."

Cool thanks!  I'm asking about wings being wide open at the merge and I want to say that at .8 I'm getting partial sweep if it's in auto-wing... however the point remains...they kept it in auto wing.  Appreciate the feedback!

[draconus]

For the short tests I did it does make a big difference in BFM and I'd also like to know why it works in DCS F-14 and if it did so IRL.

Edit: not really any difference after more tests.

Edited September 8, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

For the short tests I did it does make a big difference in BFM and I'd also like to know why it works in DCS F-14 and if it did so IRL.

What STR values did you get in comparison to AUTO?

What wings forward should do is get max the lift available to you per mach, for the price of increased induced drag. So you CLmax curve should be a bit better above mach 0.55 or so (depending on altitude) but your Ps should suffer. Never ran the tests in DCS myself, but the L/D calculations based on the data available to me imply it. 

To the OP, listen to @Spurts, he knows what he's talking about. GS is probably the least proficient  F-14 driver i've seen on youtube and the least well informed one, so take everything he mentions on his channel with a huge grain of salt. 

[draconus]

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

What STR values did you get in comparison to AUTO?

No data, sorry. It was like that: Marianas BFM vs Jeff w/Auto - hard. W/Emerg. Wing Sweep 22deg. - easy

Edited September 8, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

58 minutes ago, draconus said:

No data, sorry. It was like that: Marianas BFM vs Jeff w/Auto - hard. W/Man. 22deg. - easy

It could be the handling. She is much more predictable when the wings don't move. 
This is just a blitz and very precisely measured check. Data from tacview. A huge mountain of salt, only 3 passes per break point, so not that pedantic:

 

Sustained turns, F-14A 54000lbs GW, 500-1000ft, airspeed in TAS

wings auto: 
330 - 5.1g
350 - 5.3g
400 - 6.3g
450 - 6.4g
500 - 8.3g

 

wings forward:
330 -5.0g
350 -5.4g
400 -6.0g
450 -6.0g
500 -7.4g

Hardly any difference 300-350 and slight drop above that. The A does seam to be overpowered above 450 so it may be distorting my measures. I don't have time for a systematic check though  
Did you fight the JF-17 very slow? 

[Spartan111sqn]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

For the short tests I did it does make a big difference in BFM and I'd also like to know why it works in DCS F-14 and if it did so IRL.

How is possible to be different in auto with 22° than in manual with 22°?

 

Is that what you mean?

[Spurts]

35 minutes ago, Spartan111sqn said:

 

Is that what you mean?

No, he means using the Emergency Override to lock the wings in 22 even when the scheduler would have them sweeping aft.

[jcdata]

First 23 f14s..MSP was programmed for max lift. USN didn't like the bending wings for longevity..since then, the MSP was programmed for excess power

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[draconus]

6 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Did you fight the JF-17 very slow?

There were some very slow parts but usually it is dynamic.

Thx for the tests but it is B in the BFM vs Jeff mission I tested.

Now that I gave it another 4 fights (2 with wings on auto, 2 with emergency wing sweep set to 22) I take back my stance that it gives an advantage and I think it was coincidence.

Edited September 8, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

There were some very slow parts but usually it is dynamic.

Thx for the tests but it is B in the BFM vs Jeff mission I tested.

Now that I gave it another 4 fights (2 with wings on auto, 2 with emergency wing sweep set to 22) I take back my stance that it gives an advantage and I think it was coincidence.

 

Ah i see, i will give the B a try as well, though L/D should still be the same

[Redliner7]

All in all tho, I think there is probably an advantage being able to turn at .8-.9 mach with the wings @22' - there's just more lift & more predictability right with the wings forward...  The biggest thing against the JF17 was that I was able to get my nose around in the 1 circle so much faster than when I'm doing .8-.9 mach with the wings swept all the way back to 68' at the merge and was able to get the kill so much quicker.   If I miss the kill at the first circle against the JF17, then I'm doing the usual dance as the Tom gets slower.

But it also makes sense why real life pilots would not do this at all...longevity and maintenance mainly!  

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, Redliner7 said:

1. there's just more lift & more predictability right with the wings forward... 
2. The biggest thing against the JF17 was that I was able to get my nose around in the 1 circle so much faster than when I'm doing .8-.9 mach with the wings swept all the way back 
 

1. Also more drag. Depending on circumstances maybe even up to 25-30% more.
2. Why are you at mach 0.9 if you plan is to go one circle? 

[Hummingbird]

3 hours ago, Redliner7 said:

All in all tho, I think there is probably an advantage being able to turn at .8-.9 mach with the wings @22' - there's just more lift & more predictability right with the wings forward...  The biggest thing against the JF17 was that I was able to get my nose around in the 1 circle so much faster than when I'm doing .8-.9 mach with the wings swept all the way back to 68' at the merge and was able to get the kill so much quicker.   If I miss the kill at the first circle against the JF17, then I'm doing the usual dance as the Tom gets slower.

But it also makes sense why real life pilots would not do this at all...longevity and maintenance mainly!  

 

You wanna leave it in auto. The wing sweep scheduler is set up to ensure optimum L/D for every flight condition, so as to minimize your energy loss in maneuvers and maximize your kinematic performance. And the mechanism works basically no matter the G's pulled, the sweep rate not even having halfed at 7.5 G's. In other words, leaving it in auto will provide you the best possible two circle performance (STR), whilst at the same time not actually sacrificing anything in the one circle as here (due to radius considerations) you already want to go slow enough that the wings have long since been commanded full forward by the CADC. Thus manual sweep really gains you nothing other than worse energy retention in maneuvers and a higher chance of accidently overstressing your airframe.

 

 

 

[Redliner7]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

1. Also more drag. Depending on circumstances maybe even up to 25-30% more.
2. Why are you at mach 0.9 if you plan is to go one circle? 

I suck as a pilot? I dunno!  

[Noctrach]

11 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

You wanna leave it in auto. The wing sweep scheduler is set up to ensure optimum L/D for every flight condition, so as to minimize your energy loss in maneuvers and maximize your kinematic performance. And the mechanism works basically no matter the G's pulled, the sweep rate not even having halfed at 7.5 G's. In other words, leaving it in auto will provide you the best possible two circle performance (STR), whilst at the same time not actually sacrificing anything in the one circle as here (due to radius considerations) you already want to go slow enough that the wings have long since been commanded full forward by the CADC. Thus manual sweep really gains you nothing other than worse energy retention in maneuvers and a higher chance of accidently overstressing your airframe.

 

 

 

Wouldn't full forward be better for energy retention since AoA under load decreases with the wing swept forward?

It would be worse for acceleration since the drag profile of swept wings is a bit better, especially at <1G.

Hence Jcdata's comment about tuned for excess power rather than lift.

 

That said, I am in no way an advocate for manual sweep, I've seen too many pilots try to "outsmart" ending up in royal fuck-ups during the mental stress of an engagement.

Manual sweep "memes" matter so little in terms of performance that you're better off spending the time towards becoming a better BFM pilot.

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Noctrach said:

Wouldn't full forward be better for energy retention since AoA under load decreases with the wing swept forward?

 

With the wings forward you're running into Mach issues at AoA quicker, creating additional drag and loss of lift.

Wings fwd (higher aspect ratio) gives you a better (less) spanwise flow over alpha, but the available alpha-bracket also is smaller.

 

 

The Wing Sweep Programmer creates the best blended solution for all the boundary-considerations, which are numerous.

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

...but the available alpha-bracket also is smaller.

 

Aye, 30-31 compared to 35-36 IIRC