Questions about the next major update and the ea situation.

[IDontLikeBigbrother]

Let's be straightforward here. Is there any news or details about the next major update? Can viggen get ends her EA situation by the end of 2021?

Sorry for being straightforward, I dont mean any offence. But f14 updates come and go, while the viggen part is really quiet.

Please gives us some details, or releasing dates, releasing months is ok.

Thank you.

 

[Machalot]

Agreed. It was six months ago that the Viggen was "the top priority".  I know they are working hard on many things, but I would really love to know what's going on with the few and far between Viggen updates. 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Machalot

[Spirale]

I asked here the same questions (in the "road to release section) but no answers...

 

I agree obviously with you guys

[Karon]

From /r/hoggit.

 

Quote

We've been working hard on a huge F-14 update which was slated to release with a special update for DCS on September 28th; but we've been asked to instead move this release to October 14th.

This update will include the USS Forrestal, JESTER LANTIRN and other major features such as -B EGT and various major Viggen features. We'll do a full breakdown as we get closer and detail our plans for the roadmap beyond.

 

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

"Viggen out of EA soon" is just a bad meme

 

Sad but true. It's gotten pretty ridiculous by now how Heatblur treats the Viggen and its customers as your compilation shows pretty well.

Edited September 4, 2021 by QuiGon

[Spirale]

Be careful Desert Fox with your post ( i can agree more with you^^) otherwise" Rudel_chw" wil add you to his "ignore list" cause you write so many "bad things" lol

The truth can sometimes irritate some ( you can read page #8 road to release)

Edited September 4, 2021 by Spirale

[Spirale]

Don't worry, i find this important too. They say there'll be a major update. For me the important matter is not "when" ( it's important too) but " what will we find in this major update".

Edited September 4, 2021 by Spirale

[Snappy]

Not too happy with the way Viggen  development is handled either. Way too many big claims and announcements on priority (as desert fox impressively summarized) and far too little of actual substance in updates and bug fixing.

Developer presence in the forums is still hovering near zero , only interspersed with Cobra popping in with the next big update announcement.

 

What annoys me are the claims of “Viggen is priority now, we are pushing ressouces into the final stretch bla bla” only to find out via changelog the Tomcat again and again gets the updates , while Viggen draws the short straw.

 

Regards,

 

 Snappy 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Snappy

[War_Pig]

Honestly, tomorrow they could announce that the Viggen was released out of EA and I’d be happy.  It’s a wonderfully simulated aircraft, it works, and it’s a more complete product than any other aircraft offered by any other studio for any other sim, IMHO.  What more would you like them to do with it?

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, War_Pig said:

What more would you like them to do with it?

 

To fix the remaining 100+ bugs like that the game crashes when you're flying a looping with the Viggen and such!!

[Machalot]

48 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

To fix the remaining 100+ bugs like that the game crashes when you're flying a looping with the Viggen and such!!

Again, this is really an EBSAS, Error Between Stick and Seat.  Any Viggen pilot who pulls the nose that high has something wrong with his software upstairs.

[QuiGon]

34 minutes ago, Machalot said:

Again, this is really an EBSAS, Error Between Stick and Seat.  Any Viggen pilot who pulls the nose that high has something wrong with his software upstairs.

• While it is true that this is not how you should fly a Viggen, it is how you can fly a Viggen IRL and thus it should also be possible in the sim. The sim should definitely not crash in this case. A warning that you're flying the Viggen in a wrong fashion would be better
• As @Desert Fox has described above, such maneuvers can also be the result of battle damage and should definitely not cause the game to crash.

[Machalot]

18 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

• While it is true that this is not how you should fly a Viggen, it is how you can fly a Viggen IRL and thus it should also be possible in the sim. The sim should definitely not crash in this case. A warning that you're flying the Viggen in a wrong fashion would be better
• As @Desert Fox has described above, such maneuvers can also be the result of battle damage and should definitely not cause the game to crash.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm just trying to laugh through the pain of this super long wait. 

[Cobra847]

Keep in mind- bugs (especially new ones, like the crashing) are rather separate from whether something is EA or not. New bugs and issues will occur regardless of the marketing tag glued to the box. It sucks; but it's just the way it is with a moving platform and especially if we do indeed make changes/additions so please do keep in mind that this is something that will continue in the future. Feature wise, we've certainly exited the typical EA criteria some time ago, though the exact definition of that is perhaps usually quite ambiguous. In hindsight, it's probably been a mistake to have kept the tag and to keep adding features that have added to our criteria. The PBR overhaul is an excellent example of something that is now considered a flaw, bug and error, when it is in fact simply an improvement beyond the original scope of the product (again, as a result of a moving platform!) and is now an EA exit criteria.

 

@Desert Fox Fair enough; though if I had the time; I could copy and paste in all of the Viggen's changelogs and, especially, major additions made during an equal period of time in this thread. Credit where credit is due, I hope. We've added a lot of bonus features and changes into the Viggen since release, with plenty not being on the original roadmap. I am not ashamed of the Viggen nor the effort invested, though there is certainly room to do a lot better. With the major patch due next, we'll also be able to focus more on our own wants and desires for the Viggen (there are lots!) while worrying less about what is an EA exit criteria issue/feature.

 

As for the general topic of this thread; this has been partially mentioned on the forum elsewhere, but we've partitioned our two next releases as follows:

Oct 14th: Major F-14 Patch, including JESTER Lantirn, Forrestal class and other major improvements.

Nov 14th: Major AJS-37 Patch, including at minimum: PBR overhaul, Cockpit improvement/overhaul, sound set(s), tactical numbering and various other stuff/bugs (radar performance, a few system fixes, et al.) (and ideally, depending on how we feel, EA exit)

 

While most of the Viggen part is nearing completion, we need the breathing room to allow for any hotfixing which inevitably bubbles to the surface post each major patch. Don't read into the order above as another attempt to deprioritize the Viggen.  

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cobra847

[QuiGon]

30 minutes ago, Cobra847 said:

Keep in mind- bugs (especially new ones, like the crashing) are rather separate from whether something is EA or not. New bugs and issues will occur regardless of the marketing tag glued to the box. It sucks; but it's just the way it is with a moving platform and especially if we do indeed make changes/additions so please do keep in mind that this is something that will continue in the future. Feature wise, we've certainly exited typical EA criteria long ago. In hindsight, it's probably been a mistake to have kept the tag and to keep adding features adding to the exit criteria. The PBR overhaul is an excellent example of something that is now considered a flaw, bug and error, when it is in fact simply an improvement far beyond the original scope of the product (again, as a result of a moving platform!). 

 

@Desert Fox Fair enough; though if I had the time; I could copy and paste in all of the Viggen's changelogs and, especially, major additions made during an equal period of time in this thread. We've added a lot of bonus features and changes into the Viggen since release, with plenty not being on the original roadmap. I am not ashamed of the Viggen nor the effort invested, though there is certainly room to do a lot better. With the major patch due next, we'll also be able to focus more on our own wants and desires for the Viggen (there are lots!)

 

As for the general topic of this thread; this has been partially mentioned on the forum elsewhere, but we've partitioned our two next releases as follows:

Oct 14th: Major F-14 Patch, including JESTER Lantirn, Forrestal class and other major improvements.

Nov 14th: Major AJS-37 Patch, including at minimum: PBR overhaul, Cockpit improvement/overhaul, sound set(s), tactical numbering and various other stuff/bugs (radar performance, a few system fixes, et al.) (and ideally, depending on how we feel, EA exit)

 

While most of the Viggen part is nearing completion, we need the breathing room to allow for any hotfixing which inevitably bubbles to the surface post each major patch. Don't read into the order above as another attempt to deprioritize the Viggen.  

 

 

I really appreciate all the extra features, that were not originally planned and feature wise the Viggen is indeed pretty much complete. What is really frustrating is the amount of bugs that still persists, some of them long standing issues, while others came later through DCS changes. The problem is that the amount of bugs seems to increase over the years, meaning more functions break than getting fixed in the same time, so that the list of bugs is growing instead of shrinking. That's partly on ED and their changes for DCS (which are a necessary evil thogh), but judging by the changelogs and HB activity in the Viggen forum it really looks like HB puts barely any ressources into taking care of Viggen issues and thus can't keep up with the bug fixing.

[Cobra847]

7 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

I really appreciate all the extra features, that were not originally planned and feature wise the Viggen is indeed pretty much complete. What is really frustrating is the amount of bugs that still persists, some of them long standing issues, while others came later through DCS changes. The problem is that the amount of bugs seems to increase over the years, meaning more functions break than getting fixed in the same time, so that the list of bugs is growing instead of shrinking. That's partly on ED and their changes for DCS (which are a necessary evil thogh), but judging by the changelogs and HB activity in the Viggen forum it really looks like HB puts barely any ressources into taking care of Viggen issues and thus can't keep up with the bug fixing.

Absolutely, that's our feeling too; and I'll be restructuring the teams in a way that will allow for more dynamic allocation of resources to the Viggen on a consistent basis once we get these major features out and can focus on shoring up any new issues that do crop up with every change- regardless whether they're due to our changes or DCS. I'm not a fan of minor issues building up to the point where we need to make major patches just to fix some of them.

Keep in mind that every issue that needs to be fixed is an investment of time, effort and energy for us that we could indeed spend elsewhere; so minimizing having to go back and change things constantly is of utmost importance, not to mention of course we'd like it to be that way too for everyone's benefit.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cobra847

[QuiGon]

7 minutes ago, Cobra847 said:

Absolutely, that's our feeling too; and I'll be restructuring the teams in a way that will allow for more dynamic allocation of resources to the Viggen on a consistent basis once we get these major features out and can focus on shoring up any new issues that do crop up with every change- regardless whether they're due to our changes or DCS. I'm not a fan of minor issues building up to the point where we need to make major patches just to fix some of them.

 

I hope these restructuring meassures work out, because being a software developer myself I know how frustrating it is if you and your team are behind the curve, so that more bugs appear than you can fix in the same time. Getting ahead of this curve makes the job much more enjoyable

[TLTeo]

Cobra giving not one but two deadlines! What could possibly go wrong...going back on topic, beyond whether we get new stuff released or not, I think a sore point for the Viggen has been the lack of dev interaction here. RagnarDA used to be around addressing all sorts of questions, but he's mostly been missing for a long time and any questions about the details of some systems (e.g. mine about the BK-90) are pretty much just user speculation.

 

Regarding EA status, I've written this elsewhere but the EA tag is just entirely arbitrary at this point. For all its bugs, the Viggen is more complete than, say, either the Mirage or Harrier, and both of those have been marked as being out of EA for a very long time now. I think ED really should rework the whole concept of EA, and possibly centralize that on their side rather than let individual 3rd party devs do it themselves and just confuse users.

 

edit: grammar/wording.

Edited September 9, 2021 by TLTeo

[Cobra847]

1 hour ago, TLTeo said:

Cobra giving not one but two deadlines! What could possibly go wrong...going back on topic, beyond whether we get new stuff released or not, I think a sore point for the Viggen has been the lack of dev interaction here. RagnarDA used to be around addressing all sorts of questions, but he's mostly been missing for a long time and any questions about the details of some systems (e.g. mine about the BK-90) are pretty much just user speculation.

 

Regarding EA status, I've written this elsewhere but the EA tag is just entirely arbitrary at this point. For all its bugs, the Viggen is more complete than, say, either the Mirage or Harrier, and both of those have been marked as being out of EA for a very long time now. I think ED really should rework the whole concept of EA, and possibly centralize that on their side rather than let individual 3rd party devs do it themselves and just confuse users.

 

edit: grammar/wording.

 

I concur entirely actually. Naturally, this sometimes happens because of changing lives, priorities or focus areas for various people, which means their visibility here will ebb and flow to some extent. The backstop is always that the work gets done; and the growth and professionalization of our team ensures this.

 

It's easy to lean on the Valve model of communicating at least partially through updates, rather than talking about them a lot ahead of time, but the latter can frequently lead to missed deadlines and expectations. We need to make sure that we don't leave what made you all trust and enjoy our work here, so making sure that we communicate more here needs to be a priority even though we are strapped for time.

 

I am filtering this feedback back to the team, for what it's worth, and we will be discussing these topics soonest and take remedial action wherever possible.

 

[TOViper]

11 hours ago, Cobra847 said:

Keep in mind that every issue that needs to be fixed is an investment of time, effort and energy for us that we could indeed spend elsewhere; so minimizing having to go back and change things constantly is of utmost importance, not to mention of course we'd like it to be that way too for everyone's benefit.

 

 

Dear Cobra,

 

Thanks for coming into the disussion here, despite I cannot see much that is good enough to satisfy me in total.

Hopefully it's just me.

 

I think every one of us (I am talking about the guys adicted to the Viggen here in the forum including me) is aware of the fact that you could spend effort and energy somewhere else. What we are simply not seeing (or at least I do not see) somebody taking care very much of the beast.

Examples? Taking care about the new bugs reported since then, or super-short update logs.

 

Your valuable customers are communicating to you in a way you cannot misunderstand, and its very annoying (to me) that there are basic bugs reported and these don't get adressed or even acknowledged. This IS annoying, but moreover disappointing and even frustrating, and HB's behaviour regarding the Viggen these days is away from an (my) understanding of good product maintenance.

It might not increase with tyring and exhausting customers, yes ..., but at least you know where you brought us (me) "Viggen lover(s)". If you'd argue the few little things happend the last months on the Viggen code ... yes, that's obviously true, and it is always a nice suprise when updates arrive and us (me) reading (a super-short) update log for the AJS.

 

I was looking forward for new content from HB long time ago, but nowadays ... I just feel bad and sad about what you are (not) doing on the Viggen, and I feel exactly zero motivation for buying anything again from HB. I made a purchase for the F-14 because I trusted you. Trust is subject to change.

 

I REALLY hope this becomes better, and the promised (?) updates are already coded or even in testing phase (ok, ... DREAM_ON_SWITCH released)

No ranting, just customer communication within a group of enthusiasts having the same problem.

 

Your sincerily,

TOViper

 

Edit (important): meanwhile a humble list arrived on my desk, which shows some bugs on the long list beeing eliminated. OK, so it's just a matter of tempo ... and thus I am happy to eliminate a few sentences I wrote above. Just wanted to let you know ...

 

Edit 2: Cobra, why is HB not adding all the information / repairs to the update log? Wouldn't this help us all?

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by TOViper
important info arrived after writing this post ...

[TLTeo]

3 hours ago, TOViper said:

meanwhile a humble list arrived on my desk, which shows some bugs on the long list beeing eliminated. OK, so it's just a matter of tempo ... and thus I am happy to eliminate a few sentences I wrote above. Just wanted to let you know ...

 

Edit 2: Cobra, why is HB not adding all the information / repairs to the update log? Wouldn't this help us all?

Uh, could you elaborate on this? Have there been bug fixes not included in the change logs? Which bugs are gone?

[Machalot]

5 hours ago, TOViper said:

meanwhile a humble list arrived on my desk, which shows some bugs on the long list beeing eliminated.

Where is this list? I don't see any patch notes posted to the DCS website yet.  Is there an external site, or did you receive a PM?

[TOViper]

7 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Uh, could you elaborate on this? Have there been bug fixes not included in the change logs? Which bugs are gone?

For all bugs I noticed I created forum threads, this happend during the last 4 years.

From time to time I take a minute, do some test flights, and see if my threads still apply or not (I have a personal list).

At a certain point in time this became exhausting due to the slow progress.

 

But after reviewing some threads yesterday, testing a little bit and then talking to a friend who is also flying the Viggen a lot (he is knowing about all my topics) I came to the conclusion that HB is working on bug fixes, which is VERY good. The point was for me, that HB doesn't necessarily fill in the update log, for whatever reason. I just have to go back to my threads and do a little "fixed, thanks" at the end if the thread can be closed if I find a minute on the weekend.

For a few I already did, but a few are still missing on this.

But don't ask me why I am doing this ... I think it is because I love this module so much and I want it beeing more or less bug free

 

During flying in the last weeks I noticed some little fixes here and there, but yesterday I was in the mood to write that I am not happy with the tempo.

This is still true for today, but on the other hand I am glad they do!

 

Just to clear this up a bit ....

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by TOViper

[dorianR666]

On 9/9/2021 at 9:10 AM, Machalot said:

Again, this is really an EBSAS, Error Between Stick and Seat.  Any Viggen pilot who pulls the nose that high has something wrong with his software upstairs.

game crashes can NEVER be user errors.

Edited September 10, 2021 by dorianR666

[Machalot]

2 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

game crashes can NEVER be user errors.

 

Since more than one person reacted to your vehement statement with a "thank you"  apparently it is not obvious that my comment was a joke. It was a play on EBKAC.