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How hard is it to fly?


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My main planes are the Tomcat and Viper, and that's how I see the Hind and Apache. In the Tomcat you're a stick and rudder analog pilot, while in the Viper you're a flying systems engineer.
The Hind, like the Tomcat, is very analog and requires decent piloting skills whereas the Apache will be like the Viper, a lot of the flying is done for you/made easier so you can focus on systems.

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Having had real world stick time on the 64, and having flown other rotary wings as a rotary wing private pilot, I can tell you the Apache isn't difficult to control. The D model is not particularly agile, but it is not a slouch either. I'd put it perhaps a bit more nimble than the Hind in some regimes, but perhaps not as agile as the Shark or Gazelle (although I don't consider the Gazelle FM to be the same quality as an ED product). Start up is pretty easy, she is easy to get into a hover, and the force trim, if used correctly, makes it a breeze to keep going in the right direction.

 

The challenge with the 64 is available power, particularly at high altitudes. The D is heavy and those EFABS are just packed with lots of fancy avionics, and this comes at a cost. Expect to sacrifice load out to reach high places. 

 

 

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On 9/8/2021 at 2:59 PM, Dannyvandelft said:

My main planes are the Tomcat and Viper, and that's how I see the Hind and Apache. In the Tomcat you're a stick and rudder analog pilot, while in the Viper you're a flying systems engineer.
The Hind, like the Tomcat, is very analog and requires decent piloting skills whereas the Apache will be like the Viper, a lot of the flying is done for you/made easier so you can focus on systems.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

The Apache doesn't truly do a whole lot of flying "for you" outside of providing stability, and some aspects of it are surprisingly basic, IE start up, or even the navigation systems available. It's a two crew bird for a reason, and flying can keep one of the crew pretty busy. In principle, the Hind and the Apache both use a force trim system that will feel familiar to pilots of either aircraft, and although the Apaches system is decidedly more computerized, the actual flight characteristics with regard to force trim may not differ as much as one might think. Weapons systems are where the Apache takes on a whole different level when compared to the Hind... 

 

I actually think the Hind flies incredibly well. Very fast, good agility (for a large bird) and I find it to be quite stable! I have been a long time Hip pilot, however, so I suppose I am well accustomed. 


Edited by Hook47
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On 9/12/2021 at 6:54 PM, Hook47 said:

Having had real world stick time on the 64, and having flown other rotary wings as a rotary wing private pilot, I can tell you the Apache isn't difficult to control. The D model is not particularly agile, but it is not a slouch either. I'd put it perhaps a bit more nimble than the Hind in some regimes, but perhaps not as agile as the Shark or Gazelle (although I don't consider the Gazelle FM to be the same quality as an ED product). Start up is pretty easy, she is easy to get into a hover, and the force trim, if used correctly, makes it a breeze to keep going in the right direction.

 

The challenge with the 64 is available power, particularly at high altitudes. The D is heavy and those EFABS are just packed with lots of fancy avionics, and this comes at a cost. Expect to sacrifice load out to reach high places. 

 

 

 

So, how easy is she to start? Flick a couple switches and she comes alive? Would you be willing to share the wisdom of how to kick the spurs in this stallion and get her going?

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On 9/13/2021 at 2:12 AM, Hook47 said:

I actually think the Hind flies incredibly well. 

 

 

I still feel that the Hind is too unstable and twitchy compared to the Hip. This might be due to it's much larger mass, especially when fully armed and fueled, however I find it much more difficult to control and much less docile than the venerable Mi17. I don't know if this is as it should be or whether it is pilot error, or maybe something with regards to it's still in-complete flight model and SAS channels or whatever. Something about the Hind still feels off to me. 


Edited by Lurker

Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

So, how easy is she to start? Flick a couple switches and she comes alive? Would you be willing to share the wisdom of how to kick the spurs in this stallion and get her going?

 

I would also like to hear if we could have a pre-view of the Cold Start procedure, so we know what to expect

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Bedouin:

 

I would also like to hear if we could have a pre-view of the Cold Start procedure, so we know what to expect

 

wellll, a official preview for the startup will be released for sure. but what i can say so far, from my experience in arma3., it should be very easy: battery on, apu on, rotor brake off, crank engine 1, power lever 1 to idle, crank engine 2, power lever 2 to idle, both levers to fly. turn off apu.

switching on radios/avionics, fire tests, etc. before, of course

 

kinda similar to the f18.

but its just arma3, dont know if its similar in real life 🙂


Edited by NWGJulian
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1 hour ago, NWGJulian said:

 

wellll, a official preview for the startup will be released for sure. but what i can say so far, from my experience in arma3., it should be very easy: battery on, apu on, rotor brake off, crank engine 1, power lever 1 to idle, crank engine 2, power lever 2 to idle, both levers to fly. turn off apu.

switching on radios/avionics, fire tests, etc. before, of course

 

kinda similar to the f18.

but its just arma3, dont know if its similar in real life 🙂

 

 

Well, from @Ed Macy's "Apache":

 

There's so many systems, achieving take off from cold start requires over 1000 button pushes and takes approximately 30mins. 15 minutes if you really push it. Anything less and you won't be sure everything is working when you're up there..

 

But yeah, I suppose you'll probably also be able to do it the "Arma way" in 5 mins, just like you can in the Hornet.

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ No war today... the enemy just called in sick ~ GUMMBAH

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6 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

So, how easy is she to start? Flick a couple switches and she comes alive? Would you be willing to share the wisdom of how to kick the spurs in this stallion and get her going?

Yep. There are things we watch for but. IGN on, apu. Once I’m at start. Start button starts the start sequence ng on the rise power lever idle. Automated and ran by the engine computer. 
 

Generally. Coming up into the apu, you set your pages up, if someone is super eager to do things by the book you’ll do another test here, I’m not sure what’s being officially released so I’m not going in super detail. Once you’re done setting everything up, boresighting the ihadss etc etc, waiting for flir to cool down if you’re doing nvs. Then engine crank. 


Edited by kgillers3
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37 minutes ago, sirrah said:

 

Well, from @Ed Macy's "Apache":

 

There's so many systems, achieving take off from cold start requires over 1000 button pushes and takes approximately 30mins. 15 minutes if you really push it. Anything less and you won't be sure everything is working when you're up there..

 

But yeah, I suppose you'll probably also be able to do it the "Arma way" in 5 mins, just like you can in the Hornet.


A 1000 button pushes to start a -64D? What is he doing? Typing a 200 worded IDM message to his wife? Did he drop his DTC, and had to fat finger a complex deep attack? 

To be fair I bought the book but never read it. The hyperbole killed it for me after the first pages. 

 


Edited by Sinclair_76
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3 minutes ago, Sinclair_76 said:


A 1000 button pushes to start a -64D? What is he doing? Typing a 200 worded IDM message to his wife? Did he drop his DTC, and had to fat finger a complex deep attack? 

To be fair I bought the book but never read it. The hyperbole killed it for me after the first pages. 

 

 

Maybe he’s building all his routes and plugging in all his members manually?

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2 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

 

wellll, a official preview for the startup will be released for sure. but what i can say so far, from my experience in arma3., it should be very easy: battery on, apu on, rotor brake off, crank engine 1, power lever 1 to idle, crank engine 2, power lever 2 to idle, both levers to fly. turn off apu.

switching on radios/avionics, fire tests, etc. before, of course

 

kinda similar to the f18.

but its just arma3, dont know if its similar in real life 🙂

 

Most everything turns on pretty much by it self minus lights when you hit apu, all set on. There are a couple on offs but in RL it’s determined by your load and couple mission systems like the fcr you go hit a button. 

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54 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Maybe he’s building all his routes and plugging in all his members manually?

 

So Ed Macy was highly exaggerating then you say?

 

That in some way would be kinda disappointing. Not because I want a 30min startup procedure (I'd probably go for the "Arma" sort of startup as soon as I figured out how 😋), but because I was hoping that the book I'm reading is realistic... ☹️

 

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ No war today... the enemy just called in sick ~ GUMMBAH

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15 minutes ago, sirrah said:

 

So Ed Macy was highly exaggerating then you say?

 

That in some way would be kinda disappointing. Not because I want a 30min startup procedure (I'd probably go for the "Arma" sort of startup as soon as I figured out how 😋), but because I was hoping that the book I'm reading is realistic... ☹️

 

Dunno, never read it. I’d say super inexperienced crew doing every extended procedure in order that they’re read  you can expect probably a 15ish min run up maybe a little longer first few times as you go to find where everything is on key pages and such. Hell maybe I’m underplaying it. But the process isn’t hard. It’ll probably be different for dcs because bs is doing bs stuff and fs is doin fs stuff where if you’re sp in dcs it’ll probably be a bit longer. 


Edited by kgillers3
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7 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Dunno, never read it. I’d say super inexperienced crew doing every extended procedure in order that they’re read  you can expect probably a 15ish min run up maybe a little longer first few times as you go to find where everything is on key pages and such. Hell maybe I’m underplaying it. But the process isn’t hard. It’ll probably be different for dcs because bs is doing bs stuff and fs is doin fs stuff where if you’re sp in dcs it’ll probably be a bit longer. 

 

Just read that piece again in his book, to see if I missed an indication of "a figure of speech". But none whatsoever. I don't think I'm allowed to exactly quote his words, but nothing indicates that he meant to exaggerate.

It can be read in chapter "handover" (can't say which page as I'm using the e-book version)

 

Could it be that the British (AgustaWestland) version of the D is more complicated to start than its original US brother?

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ No war today... the enemy just called in sick ~ GUMMBAH

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Caveat to my previous I did read it a while ago. I’m glancing through my kindle app for it.   If you’re saying “30 minutes to takeoff” - Apache by Ed Macy is you’re example then I’d say they were probably taking they’re time. 1000 buttons to push is an exaggeration imo. Never been in a British Apache tho so what do I know about their procedures which I think is the biggest difference tbh. 

I’ve also never counted my button pushed so there’s that 

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Tell you what, I have a day flight today and I’ll try and keep track of how many buttons I push, I’ll be fs today so dunno how much that’ll help also full disclosure the different version and different model will require different buttons. But the overall process should be similar 


Edited by kgillers3
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7 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Tell you what, I have a day flight today and I’ll try and keep track of how many buttons I push, I’ll be fs today so dunno how much that’ll help also full disclosure the different version and different model will require different buttons. But the overall process should be similar 

 

Hehe, better just focus on the job at hand instead of counting button presses I'd suggest. I don't want to be somewhat responsible for you messing up your flight because you were busy counting 😅

 

(not really important anyways 😋)

 

I am though interested in how long it'll take you from stepping in the cockpit to taxiing out.

 

Have a good flight sir

(Said Sirrah kinda jealous 😄)

 

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ No war today... the enemy just called in sick ~ GUMMBAH

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30 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Hehe, better just focus on the job at hand instead of counting button presses I'd suggest. I don't want to be somewhat responsible for you messing up your flight because you were busy counting 😅

 

(not really important anyways 😋)

 

I am though interested in how long it'll take you from stepping in the cockpit to taxiing out.

 

Have a good flight sir

(Said Sirrah kinda jealous 😄)

 

Oh it won’t be specific, I’ll just write a number down on my kneeboard and tally em later, it’ll be probably a longer one run up anyways. How long from stepping in to launch is situation dependent, I think most peeps in dcs will be probably blades turning and taxing in about 4-5. People who want to do the procedures with practice will probably be up at around 8-10 with practice. 

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1 hour ago, sirrah said:

Just read that piece again in his book, to see if I missed an indication of "a figure of speech". But none whatsoever. I don't think I'm allowed to exactly quote his words, but nothing indicates that he meant to exaggerate.

It can be read in chapter "handover" (can't say which page as I'm using the e-book version)

 

Could it be that the British (AgustaWestland) version of the D is more complicated to start than its original US brother?

Not much difference I've been told. Although for certain engine start is even easier than the US Army -64D. Just advance the power levers into idle or whatever the first position is called. The aircraft does the rest of the start.

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14 minutes ago, Sinclair_76 said:

Not much difference I've been told. Although for certain engine start is even easier than the US Army -64D. Just advance the power levers into idle or whatever the first position is called. The aircraft does the rest of the start.

Correct

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Button pushes, take it with a grain of salt because different model and different version. Also remember our pushes won’t necessarily cross over because a lot of mine are setting up comms, grabbing atis so on and so forth. Also I didn’t set up the prf codes because today wasn’t a deal so it might balance out. Fs ~ 120 ish. Bs ~60ish most of it tho was comms and show pages so. Hope it helps. 


Edited by kgillers3
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Sorry, I hadn't checked here for a couple days! I'll break down the start procedure from memory, but remember this isn't word for word per the checklist, nor all inclusive or "by the book" / 1520 friendly... This is how to start it as fast as possible... 

 

1. Battery switch to BATT or EXT POWER (depending on if you are using a GPU or not) 

 

2. APU button (press to start) and watch the UFD while it fires up. APU ON light should come on (on the button)

 

3. Rotor brake switch OFF

 

4. Engine 1 start switch FORWARD (to motor engine) 

 

5. Once the Ng temp starts coming up, engine 1 throttle forward to IDLE

 

6. Watch temp and UFD for a good start on 1. 

 

7.  Engine 2 start switch FORWARD (to motor engine)

 

8.  5. Once the Ng temp starts coming up, engine 2 throttle forward to IDLE

 

9.  Both engine levers to FLT position

 

10. APU OFF (by pressing APU button)

 

There ya go! A started AH-64 in 10 easy steps. Again, that's not manual friendly but it will get it running. 

 

Look's like we have a real steel AH-64 aviator here, so please set me straight if I missed anything major! I was just a crew chief and a Chinook FE, so I don't know as much as a current pilot! 

 

8 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Yep. There are things we watch for but. IGN on, apu. Once I’m at start. Start button starts the start sequence ng on the rise power lever idle. Automated and ran by the engine computer. 
 

Generally. Coming up into the apu, you set your pages up, if someone is super eager to do things by the book you’ll do another test here, I’m not sure what’s being officially released so I’m not going in super detail. Once you’re done setting everything up, boresighting the ihadss etc etc, waiting for flir to cool down if you’re doing nvs. Then engine crank. 

 

 


Edited by Hook47
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16 minutes ago, Hook47 said:

Sorry, I hadn't checked here for a couple days! I'll break down the start procedure from memory, but remember this isn't word for word per the checklist, nor all inclusive or "by the book" / 1520 friendly... This is how to start it as fast as possible... 

 

1. Battery switch to BATT or EXT POWER (depending on if you are using a GPU or not) 

 

2. APU button (press to start) and watch the UFD while it fires up. APU ON light should come on (on the button)

 

3. Rotor brake switch OFF

 

4. Engine 1 start switch FORWARD (to motor engine) 

 

5. Once the Ng temp starts coming up, engine 1 throttle forward to IDLE

 

6. Watch temp and UFD for a good start on 1. 

 

7.  Engine 2 start switch FORWARD (to motor engine)

 

8.  5. Once the Ng temp starts coming up, engine 2 throttle forward to IDLE

 

9.  Both engine levers to FLT position

 

10. APU OFF (by pressing APU button)

 

There ya go! A started AH-64 in 10 easy steps. Again, that's not manual friendly but it will get it running. 

 

Look's like we have a real steel AH-64 aviator here, so please set me straight if I missed anything major! I was just a crew chief and a Chinook FE, so I don't know as much as a current pilot! 

 

 

 

No rotor brake unless you’re doing rotor locked starts, remains in off pos. Wait for inu to align before starting typically but I don’t think it’ll matter for game(your compass will show at top of your hdu when complete) You’ll want to get your weapons pages set up  and boresight complete prior to starting just because of fuel but if you don’t care it’s up too you.  Again you won’t need all the pages on the mpds, it’s not hard and most peeps I think won’t be doing full run ups, nor would I expect my approximate button pushes to be required for this.  If someone wants to and that’s what they like that’s cool to but I know I won’t be doing accurate run ups.


Edited by kgillers3
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