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Am 3.9.2021 um 19:19 schrieb Wags:

In the words of on of our SME testers, flying the Apache should feel like cheating, it is so easy.

 

Kind regards,

Wags

Hm, while we're on the subject: And how about using the module? I mean using the avionics as pilot / co-pilot in single player? With the Mi-24, I think it has been solved very well so far. Quite complex with the F-14 (compared to the Mi-24). 


Edited by kotor633

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9 hours ago, VampireNZ said:

Probably relatively easy given the above evidence and the fact the computers are doing most the work....unless you ask a helicopter pilot - then it is harder than performing a triple heart bypass, in the dark, with nothing but a spade and a half eaten carrot, whilst riding a rollercoaster, upside down, in space, without a space suit. (TLDR - generally pilots tend to greatly overexaggerate the difficulty of flying 🤭)

Sorry it was TL, I'll pull the key points.

- U will need some sort of ruddr to make a/c turn

- ruddr force trimmable  

- force trim reset = no computer help while pressed

-sas saturate advisory = limited computer help 

- a/c need to be n good spot b4 u turn on hold modes, or else they won't do what u want 

-will likely be easier than uh-1

 


Edited by kgillers3
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3 hours ago, cfrag said:

 

As you said, this is highly individual. I find a high-fidelity cockpit like the Hornet (and hopefully Apache) much more accessible in VR simply because all I need to do is look at a button, and click (no need to bind on my HOTAS). I can fly the Bug with only a minimum of additional buttons (to the standard HOTAS buttons) - and that includes that one button I need to hold down during startup bit test. The rest I do visually, with almost 2/3 of my buttons unassigned. I'm hoping that since the 64 also has these big screens and OSB, I'll get away with only a minimum of key binds. Compare that to the Flaming Cliffs planes where I not only almost ran out of buttons, I seem to constantly forget which is which (and - as you mentioned - it's difficult to feel your way around big, complex panels (I'm using a Virpil throttle plus an attached #1 panel, and although there are many buttons, practical VR considerations make only half of them blindly accessible). And old age isn't helping, but still 🙂

 

 

There aren't too many buttons you will need pending on how the AI controls work. 

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On 9/5/2021 at 8:48 AM, veenee said:

that's a no

not at all

Dont know whats your deal with the Huey, but Huey was pretty much the simplest helicopter to master. This coming from someone who started off in the Ka50 10 some odd years ago and flying the Hind now...flown and still fly them all.


Edited by Hammer1-1
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2 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Dont know whats your deal with the Huey, but Huey was pretty much the simplest helicopter to master. This coming from someone who started off in the Ka50 10 some odd years ago and flying the Hind now...flown and still fly them all.

 

I think the deal is systems vs understanding controls.  I can see both. So ka, hind, 64 will have systems to help, but if you don't understand them you'll end up fighting against them.  where the uh1 only has cyclic force trim so if you understand whats going on you can easily just move the controls. but if you don't you end up fighting it. 

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6 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

I think the deal is systems vs understanding controls.  I can see both. So ka, hind, 64 will have systems to help, but if you don't understand them you'll end up fighting against them.  where the uh1 only has cyclic force trim so if you understand whats going on you can easily just move the controls. but if you don't you end up fighting it. 

well even still, all one has to really do is trim the aircraft and thats universal in all the helicopters. The method of trim is the same throughout the board: hold the trimmer button down and move your cyclic to a position where its stable then release the button. Its just that in the other helis you have a trimmer switch too to help trim further. Where in the russian birds, the trim release in the Huey will get you perfectly trimmed while you need to refine the trim in the others. But of course I have far more time in the Huey than all the other helicopters combined, but still have a substantial amount of time in all of them. I will say this though and everyone should be in agreement - SOMEONE NEEDS TO MAKE A NEW FFB STICK. That would make flying these things absolutely incredible.


Edited by Hammer1-1

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27 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

well even still, all one has to really do is trim the aircraft and thats universal in all the helicopters. The method of trim is the same throughout the board: hold the trimmer button down and move your cyclic to a position where its stable then release the button. Its just that in the other helis you have a trimmer switch too to help trim further. Where in the russian birds, the trim release in the Huey will get you perfectly trimmed while you need to refine the trim in the others. But of course I have far more time in the Huey than all the other helicopters combined, but still have a substantial amount of time in all of them. I will say this though and everyone should be in agreement - SOMEONE NEEDS TO MAKE A NEW FFB STICK. That would make flying these things absolutely incredible.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you on how trim works but if your self taught which I think most dcs players are, and you first learn how to fly with assists and that's what you're used too, and you go to an aircraft with no assists it's a difficult world, adding power requiring more pedal which induces cyclic input to stay somewhere etc.  Vice versa if you start with no assists and you go to an aircraft with assists you end up fighting those, I want the aircraft to turn left and it tries to correct because I've set the wrong mode or something.  I like the uh-1 because it's so mechanical. 

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8 hours ago, Marky146 said:

My 10p worth. Long ago I was a fixed wing flying instructor. Lots of flying lessons in a Cessna 150/152 plus occasionally a 172 and a 182. My total time was approaching about 1,000hrs so not a brand new pilot or anything. I'd trained in PA28 and PA34 Seneca for my CPL/IR tests and couldn't get a job in the mid nineties so instructing was what I did to build hours and get noticed. Anyway. I paid for a single hour lesson in a Sweitzer/Hughes 300 helicopter. Within about 10 minutes I was hovering, transitioning in and out of hover and by the end of the hour I was flying circuits  and approaches back into the hover comfortably. We ran out of time to get into Autorotating exercises though.No money for a second hour......

 

The point is a competent pilot can learn to fly a helicopter quite quickly. And I mean a small agile training helicopter, not a stabilised, heavy and far easier to fly one as depicted in the DCS. 

 

It's perfectly possible. I can say I never managed to fly the MsFS helicopters, or X plane. Really struggled until I went VR. Instantly it was a doddle again when I did!

With 16000 hours on fixed wing aircraft and a late starter with rotary wings, I can attest to the relative ease one can move make the move. While not easy, I would describe it a challenge, albeit an interesting and a nice one it is still a challenge. VR makes the difference. Using VR takes the experience to a totally different level with flight simulators. DCS is realistic and VR adds to that.

 

Now the discussion has been around for ever if a sim pilot can fly a real aircraft. With the modern flight simulator platforms, I have no doubt many if not most certainly can. I myself learned instrument flying basics and VOR tracking with FSII about 3 decades ago.  It is a different story if one can manage a whole flight and everything involved be it civilian and or military flying. Certainly flying itself is not a hugely difficult maneuver, but if it was easy as many seem to suggest, then everyone could do it with no selections, in-depth training costing hundreds of thousands or getting paid 5 figures a month to fly one of those big civvie things.


Edited by Baltic Pirate
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Flying is relatively easy, but since aircraft are so expensive and carry so many people, you need to train for years to make sure you can fly safely, anywhere and everywhere, on a daily basis. That's what those 5-figure paychecks are for. That's also why we aren't going to replace pilots with computers anytime soon, despite the fact modern airliners can fly on autopilot from takeoff to landing. If you're entrusting two people with the lives of 200+, who could all die because of one switch left in wrong position (and such thing happened in the past), you make damn sure those two people know exactly which switches to flip, and what to do when one of them suddenly decides not to switch the thing that it should.

 

I suspect that for IFR, sim pilots might actually be better than beginners coming from VFR, especially those inducted into the old-timer "fly with by the seat of your pants" school of piloting that some pilots say still lingers in certain circles. In instrument conditions, you can't rely on your feeling of balance, and in fact, they'll usually betray you. In a sim, you don't have these cues in first place, so you naturally fly by your instruments first. Another thing about simmers is that they tend to have a lot of hours, since you don't have to pay for the gas in order to fly in a sim, and you don't have to wait for weather, either.

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17 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

That's what the guy in front is for. 🙂

 

Seriously though I think you have a pretty big point here. I really dislike convoluted and complicated modern integrated sensory and weapon systems. There is something off-putting about being in the cockpit and colloquially "flying the computer". This is why I can't get into the F18C. It's just too much heads down and managing systems instead of actually, well flying. I do get different strokes for different folks, so I if you're into that, all the more power to you. I'm not, but I will still be getting the Apache, as I have a RL friend who will dedicate himself to weapons employment. We already fly in the Hind together and this is where the fun is. 

I know this is off topic but have you tried the F-16? The avionics and hotas are integrated so well and super easy to use. Plus the amazing visibility due to the frameless bubble canopy. I never look down in the Viper, even if I had to, it only takes a second or two. It's the most enjoyable modern jet to FLY in DCS. 

 

F-18's hotas function is just so poor and working the avionics is just too complicated comparing to the Viper. I too dislike flying the Hornet. 

15 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

yes, me too. that why i like the f16 much more now. you dont need the screens that much, most things are done quickly and wasy with the TMS and DMS switches.

Glad to see another Viper fan! 

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45 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

 

F-18's hotas function is just so poor and working the avionics is just too complicated comparing to the Viper. I too dislike flying the Hornet. 

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

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1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

Yes, I'm serious. After you are finishing learning the Viper and have mastered its hotas (some functions are still WIP btw), you will see. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Hammer1-1:

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

yes, at first it doesnt look as intuitive. you need to learn first what the tms aft/fwd/left/right switches do. but as soon as you figured it out and got it into your muscle memory, you hardly ever need to put your head down to the screens. 

that obviously counts for bvr and the fcr, but it is also the case with i.e. the tgp and throwing bombs quick and easy to a certain target (just think about how weird it is to set up jdams in the f18 … in the f16 it is like one single button you need to press, the PWR ON button). once learned, its much more intuitive. 


Edited by NWGJulian
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I agree with viper vs hornet. 

Tired to get into the F18 for many weeks, just couldn't "get it" I found it overly complicated. 

I then went to the F16  and while I'm far from mastering it. I can do missions. I can use all the A/G and most A/A systems (except for the mavericks are a pain) 

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13 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Limits, EPs, Regulations, and Required Foundational Knowledge is hard. 

It's not really hard, just a bunch of numbers and a bunch of (largely sensible) rules to remember. Now, I'm a biophysicist, so I might be a bit biased in terms of how hard RFK is to most people, but in the end, you're flying planes not designing them. If you can do a job that earns enough for you to afford flying lessons, then you can learn these things, too (unless that job is in management 🙂 ). Interestingly enough, the number of things you absolutely must remember at all times when flying is pretty low and confined to a handful of emergency procedures. For the rest, the first thing a real pilot does is to grab a checklist (including the stuff done regularly), because humans forget things and paper does not. 

 

Also, if you're shooting for realism, you'll quickly learn the value of doing a proper preflight. Real pilots learn this stuff for a reason. The sim won't stop you from flying without this knowledge, but learning it still helps (although I really wish civil sims did a better job at AI traffic and ATC). 

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24 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's not really hard, just a bunch of numbers and a bunch of (largely sensible) rules to remember. Now, I'm a biophysicist, so I might be a bit biased in terms …


Ok let me rephrase. Keeping up with new information and fighting the law of primacy is hard.  Case and point “humans forget things paper does not”


Edited by kgillers3
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Regardless of how easy or difficult it is to fly the F16 vs the F18, the topic is the Apache AH64D. 


These are helicopters operated by the US Army. How hard can it be? 😛

 

/ducks for cover

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6 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

yes, at first it doesnt look as intuitive. you need to learn first what the tms aft/fwd/left/right switches do. but as soon as you figured it out and got it into your muscle memory, you hardly ever need to put your head down to the screens. 

that obviously counts for bvr and the fcr, but it is also the case with i.e. the tgp and throwing bombs quick and easy to a certain target (just think about how weird it is to set up jdams in the f18 … in the f16 it is like one single button you need to press, the PWR ON button). once learned, its much more intuitive. 

 

For another thread, but do want to wrap up this...will be easier to set up JDAMS and JSOWS when the data cartridge comes. Thinking the Viper already has it...? anyways this is an apache thread. I doubt it will be as easy as Wags makes it out to say when you involve all of the other systems you have to fiddle around with all them controls on the collective, but flying might be the easiest thing to learn in it.

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I think all of the MFD pages and subpages will be difficult to learn to navigate in the same time as flying the Apache, because if looking in the manual, there are really lots and lots of pages... so perhaps the flying won't be the most difficult!

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28 minutes ago, Bedouin said:

I think all of the MFD pages and subpages will be difficult to learn to navigate in the same time as flying the Apache, because if looking in the manual, there are really lots and lots of pages... so perhaps the flying won't be the most difficult!

 

Depending on how deep you want to get in your playstyle most of them won't be necessary.  Weapons page, TSD, mmm... maybe engine page if you're trying to play within the limits. Doubt you'll mess much with the DTU or maintenance side or if they're implemented. The weapons page might be a bit tricky for peeps to begin with, dealing with how laser codes are assigned.  Then just remember if you get lost hit the m button to bring you back to the top. 

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Back on topic, I expect the Apache to be very easy to fly. My guess is it will be similar to the Ka-50 in terms of stability but will suffer from torque unlike the Ka-50. As for what's hardest? Definitely not the Huey. Completely ignoring systems and just looking at takeoff, fly around, landing, the Huey is probably the third easiest, behind the Ka-50 (with all autopilot channels off) and the hilariously unrealistic flight model of the Gazelle. Hardest is either the Hip or Hind I think. Once again, that's with the autopilot off. I don't consider either to be difficult, but they are bit more susceptible to VRS and side slipping all over the place.

 

Systems wise, I expect the Apache to be a nightmare of endless MFD pages where firing an unguided rocket pair requires 407 button presses much like the A-10 and F-18. I am really looking forwards to it, but like so many of those 80's and 90's aircraft, it uses early iterations of glass cockpits where engineers hadn't really figured out how UI should work yet. So really dumb useless stuff will be easy to access or the default mode while the most critical time sensitive things will be buried in many cases and lack direct access.

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54 minutes ago, BeastyBaiter said:

Systems wise, I expect the Apache to be a nightmare of endless MFD pages where firing an unguided rocket pair requires 407 button presses much like the A-10 and F-18. I am really looking forwards to it, but like so many of those 80's and 90's aircraft, it uses early iterations of glass cockpits where engineers hadn't really figured out how UI should work yet. So really dumb useless stuff will be easy to access or the default mode while the most critical time sensitive things will be buried in many cases and lack direct access.

 

MPDs aren't that bad, if you're trying to do full RL start up there's some more ones you'll have to mess with.  If you set up your weapons prior to taking off firing rockets or gun is as simple as WAS-RKT trigger squeeze.  Setting up the Laser codes isn't that intuitive if you aren't used to it. Reality you'll probably find yourself using WPN and TSD page from backseat or maybe a FCR.  Front seat primarily WPN and TSD.  

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