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How hard is it to fly?


Gunfreak

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8 hours ago, Marky146 said:

My 10p worth. Long ago I was a fixed wing flying instructor. Lots of flying lessons in a Cessna 150/152 plus occasionally a 172 and a 182. My total time was approaching about 1,000hrs so not a brand new pilot or anything. I'd trained in PA28 and PA34 Seneca for my CPL/IR tests and couldn't get a job in the mid nineties so instructing was what I did to build hours and get noticed. Anyway. I paid for a single hour lesson in a Sweitzer/Hughes 300 helicopter. Within about 10 minutes I was hovering, transitioning in and out of hover and by the end of the hour I was flying circuits  and approaches back into the hover comfortably. We ran out of time to get into Autorotating exercises though.No money for a second hour......

 

The point is a competent pilot can learn to fly a helicopter quite quickly. And I mean a small agile training helicopter, not a stabilised, heavy and far easier to fly one as depicted in the DCS. 

 

It's perfectly possible. I can say I never managed to fly the MsFS helicopters, or X plane. Really struggled until I went VR. Instantly it was a doddle again when I did!

With 16000 hours on fixed wing aircraft and a late starter with rotary wings, I can attest to the relative ease one can move make the move. While not easy, I would describe it a challenge, albeit an interesting and a nice one it is still a challenge. VR makes the difference. Using VR takes the experience to a totally different level with flight simulators. DCS is realistic and VR adds to that.

 

Now the discussion has been around for ever if a sim pilot can fly a real aircraft. With the modern flight simulator platforms, I have no doubt many if not most certainly can. I myself learned instrument flying basics and VOR tracking with FSII about 3 decades ago.  It is a different story if one can manage a whole flight and everything involved be it civilian and or military flying. Certainly flying itself is not a hugely difficult maneuver, but if it was easy as many seem to suggest, then everyone could do it with no selections, in-depth training costing hundreds of thousands or getting paid 5 figures a month to fly one of those big civvie things.


Edited by Baltic Pirate
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Flying is relatively easy, but since aircraft are so expensive and carry so many people, you need to train for years to make sure you can fly safely, anywhere and everywhere, on a daily basis. That's what those 5-figure paychecks are for. That's also why we aren't going to replace pilots with computers anytime soon, despite the fact modern airliners can fly on autopilot from takeoff to landing. If you're entrusting two people with the lives of 200+, who could all die because of one switch left in wrong position (and such thing happened in the past), you make damn sure those two people know exactly which switches to flip, and what to do when one of them suddenly decides not to switch the thing that it should.

 

I suspect that for IFR, sim pilots might actually be better than beginners coming from VFR, especially those inducted into the old-timer "fly with by the seat of your pants" school of piloting that some pilots say still lingers in certain circles. In instrument conditions, you can't rely on your feeling of balance, and in fact, they'll usually betray you. In a sim, you don't have these cues in first place, so you naturally fly by your instruments first. Another thing about simmers is that they tend to have a lot of hours, since you don't have to pay for the gas in order to fly in a sim, and you don't have to wait for weather, either.

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Yeah the dude who stole that Dash-8 400 was living LIFE. Thats how the AO server looked like on even a great and wonderful day.

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17 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

That's what the guy in front is for. 🙂

 

Seriously though I think you have a pretty big point here. I really dislike convoluted and complicated modern integrated sensory and weapon systems. There is something off-putting about being in the cockpit and colloquially "flying the computer". This is why I can't get into the F18C. It's just too much heads down and managing systems instead of actually, well flying. I do get different strokes for different folks, so I if you're into that, all the more power to you. I'm not, but I will still be getting the Apache, as I have a RL friend who will dedicate himself to weapons employment. We already fly in the Hind together and this is where the fun is. 

I know this is off topic but have you tried the F-16? The avionics and hotas are integrated so well and super easy to use. Plus the amazing visibility due to the frameless bubble canopy. I never look down in the Viper, even if I had to, it only takes a second or two. It's the most enjoyable modern jet to FLY in DCS. 

 

F-18's hotas function is just so poor and working the avionics is just too complicated comparing to the Viper. I too dislike flying the Hornet. 

15 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

yes, me too. that why i like the f16 much more now. you dont need the screens that much, most things are done quickly and wasy with the TMS and DMS switches.

Glad to see another Viper fan! 

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45 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

 

F-18's hotas function is just so poor and working the avionics is just too complicated comparing to the Viper. I too dislike flying the Hornet. 

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

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1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

Yes, I'm serious. After you are finishing learning the Viper and have mastered its hotas (some functions are still WIP btw), you will see. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Hammer1-1:

You serious? Im just now learning the Viper and its not nearly as intuitive as the Hornet is. I will admit that the Viper is no slouch when it comes to BVR, but the bug is fairly easy to learn IMO and even easier to BFM in.

yes, at first it doesnt look as intuitive. you need to learn first what the tms aft/fwd/left/right switches do. but as soon as you figured it out and got it into your muscle memory, you hardly ever need to put your head down to the screens. 

that obviously counts for bvr and the fcr, but it is also the case with i.e. the tgp and throwing bombs quick and easy to a certain target (just think about how weird it is to set up jdams in the f18 … in the f16 it is like one single button you need to press, the PWR ON button). once learned, its much more intuitive. 


Edited by NWGJulian
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I agree with viper vs hornet. 

Tired to get into the F18 for many weeks, just couldn't "get it" I found it overly complicated. 

I then went to the F16  and while I'm far from mastering it. I can do missions. I can use all the A/G and most A/A systems (except for the mavericks are a pain) 

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13 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Limits, EPs, Regulations, and Required Foundational Knowledge is hard. 

It's not really hard, just a bunch of numbers and a bunch of (largely sensible) rules to remember. Now, I'm a biophysicist, so I might be a bit biased in terms of how hard RFK is to most people, but in the end, you're flying planes not designing them. If you can do a job that earns enough for you to afford flying lessons, then you can learn these things, too (unless that job is in management 🙂 ). Interestingly enough, the number of things you absolutely must remember at all times when flying is pretty low and confined to a handful of emergency procedures. For the rest, the first thing a real pilot does is to grab a checklist (including the stuff done regularly), because humans forget things and paper does not. 

 

Also, if you're shooting for realism, you'll quickly learn the value of doing a proper preflight. Real pilots learn this stuff for a reason. The sim won't stop you from flying without this knowledge, but learning it still helps (although I really wish civil sims did a better job at AI traffic and ATC). 

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Regardless of how easy or difficult it is to fly the F16 vs the F18, the topic is the Apache AH64D. 


These are helicopters operated by the US Army. How hard can it be? 😛

 

/ducks for cover

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6 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

yes, at first it doesnt look as intuitive. you need to learn first what the tms aft/fwd/left/right switches do. but as soon as you figured it out and got it into your muscle memory, you hardly ever need to put your head down to the screens. 

that obviously counts for bvr and the fcr, but it is also the case with i.e. the tgp and throwing bombs quick and easy to a certain target (just think about how weird it is to set up jdams in the f18 … in the f16 it is like one single button you need to press, the PWR ON button). once learned, its much more intuitive. 

 

For another thread, but do want to wrap up this...will be easier to set up JDAMS and JSOWS when the data cartridge comes. Thinking the Viper already has it...? anyways this is an apache thread. I doubt it will be as easy as Wags makes it out to say when you involve all of the other systems you have to fiddle around with all them controls on the collective, but flying might be the easiest thing to learn in it.

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Back on topic, I expect the Apache to be very easy to fly. My guess is it will be similar to the Ka-50 in terms of stability but will suffer from torque unlike the Ka-50. As for what's hardest? Definitely not the Huey. Completely ignoring systems and just looking at takeoff, fly around, landing, the Huey is probably the third easiest, behind the Ka-50 (with all autopilot channels off) and the hilariously unrealistic flight model of the Gazelle. Hardest is either the Hip or Hind I think. Once again, that's with the autopilot off. I don't consider either to be difficult, but they are bit more susceptible to VRS and side slipping all over the place.

 

Systems wise, I expect the Apache to be a nightmare of endless MFD pages where firing an unguided rocket pair requires 407 button presses much like the A-10 and F-18. I am really looking forwards to it, but like so many of those 80's and 90's aircraft, it uses early iterations of glass cockpits where engineers hadn't really figured out how UI should work yet. So really dumb useless stuff will be easy to access or the default mode while the most critical time sensitive things will be buried in many cases and lack direct access.

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My main planes are the Tomcat and Viper, and that's how I see the Hind and Apache. In the Tomcat you're a stick and rudder analog pilot, while in the Viper you're a flying systems engineer.
The Hind, like the Tomcat, is very analog and requires decent piloting skills whereas the Apache will be like the Viper, a lot of the flying is done for you/made easier so you can focus on systems.

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Having had real world stick time on the 64, and having flown other rotary wings as a rotary wing private pilot, I can tell you the Apache isn't difficult to control. The D model is not particularly agile, but it is not a slouch either. I'd put it perhaps a bit more nimble than the Hind in some regimes, but perhaps not as agile as the Shark or Gazelle (although I don't consider the Gazelle FM to be the same quality as an ED product). Start up is pretty easy, she is easy to get into a hover, and the force trim, if used correctly, makes it a breeze to keep going in the right direction.

 

The challenge with the 64 is available power, particularly at high altitudes. The D is heavy and those EFABS are just packed with lots of fancy avionics, and this comes at a cost. Expect to sacrifice load out to reach high places. 

 

 

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On 9/8/2021 at 2:59 PM, Dannyvandelft said:

My main planes are the Tomcat and Viper, and that's how I see the Hind and Apache. In the Tomcat you're a stick and rudder analog pilot, while in the Viper you're a flying systems engineer.
The Hind, like the Tomcat, is very analog and requires decent piloting skills whereas the Apache will be like the Viper, a lot of the flying is done for you/made easier so you can focus on systems.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

The Apache doesn't truly do a whole lot of flying "for you" outside of providing stability, and some aspects of it are surprisingly basic, IE start up, or even the navigation systems available. It's a two crew bird for a reason, and flying can keep one of the crew pretty busy. In principle, the Hind and the Apache both use a force trim system that will feel familiar to pilots of either aircraft, and although the Apaches system is decidedly more computerized, the actual flight characteristics with regard to force trim may not differ as much as one might think. Weapons systems are where the Apache takes on a whole different level when compared to the Hind... 

 

I actually think the Hind flies incredibly well. Very fast, good agility (for a large bird) and I find it to be quite stable! I have been a long time Hip pilot, however, so I suppose I am well accustomed. 


Edited by Hook47
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On 9/12/2021 at 6:54 PM, Hook47 said:

Having had real world stick time on the 64, and having flown other rotary wings as a rotary wing private pilot, I can tell you the Apache isn't difficult to control. The D model is not particularly agile, but it is not a slouch either. I'd put it perhaps a bit more nimble than the Hind in some regimes, but perhaps not as agile as the Shark or Gazelle (although I don't consider the Gazelle FM to be the same quality as an ED product). Start up is pretty easy, she is easy to get into a hover, and the force trim, if used correctly, makes it a breeze to keep going in the right direction.

 

The challenge with the 64 is available power, particularly at high altitudes. The D is heavy and those EFABS are just packed with lots of fancy avionics, and this comes at a cost. Expect to sacrifice load out to reach high places. 

 

 

 

So, how easy is she to start? Flick a couple switches and she comes alive? Would you be willing to share the wisdom of how to kick the spurs in this stallion and get her going?

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On 9/13/2021 at 2:12 AM, Hook47 said:

I actually think the Hind flies incredibly well. 

 

 

I still feel that the Hind is too unstable and twitchy compared to the Hip. This might be due to it's much larger mass, especially when fully armed and fueled, however I find it much more difficult to control and much less docile than the venerable Mi17. I don't know if this is as it should be or whether it is pilot error, or maybe something with regards to it's still in-complete flight model and SAS channels or whatever. Something about the Hind still feels off to me. 


Edited by Lurker

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3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

So, how easy is she to start? Flick a couple switches and she comes alive? Would you be willing to share the wisdom of how to kick the spurs in this stallion and get her going?

 

I would also like to hear if we could have a pre-view of the Cold Start procedure, so we know what to expect

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Bedouin:

 

I would also like to hear if we could have a pre-view of the Cold Start procedure, so we know what to expect

 

wellll, a official preview for the startup will be released for sure. but what i can say so far, from my experience in arma3., it should be very easy: battery on, apu on, rotor brake off, crank engine 1, power lever 1 to idle, crank engine 2, power lever 2 to idle, both levers to fly. turn off apu.

switching on radios/avionics, fire tests, etc. before, of course

 

kinda similar to the f18.

but its just arma3, dont know if its similar in real life 🙂


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1 hour ago, NWGJulian said:

 

wellll, a official preview for the startup will be released for sure. but what i can say so far, from my experience in arma3., it should be very easy: battery on, apu on, rotor brake off, crank engine 1, power lever 1 to idle, crank engine 2, power lever 2 to idle, both levers to fly. turn off apu.

switching on radios/avionics, fire tests, etc. before, of course

 

kinda similar to the f18.

but its just arma3, dont know if its similar in real life 🙂

 

 

Well, from @Ed Macy's "Apache":

 

There's so many systems, achieving take off from cold start requires over 1000 button pushes and takes approximately 30mins. 15 minutes if you really push it. Anything less and you won't be sure everything is working when you're up there..

 

But yeah, I suppose you'll probably also be able to do it the "Arma way" in 5 mins, just like you can in the Hornet.

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37 minutes ago, sirrah said:

 

Well, from @Ed Macy's "Apache":

 

There's so many systems, achieving take off from cold start requires over 1000 button pushes and takes approximately 30mins. 15 minutes if you really push it. Anything less and you won't be sure everything is working when you're up there..

 

But yeah, I suppose you'll probably also be able to do it the "Arma way" in 5 mins, just like you can in the Hornet.


A 1000 button pushes to start a -64D? What is he doing? Typing a 200 worded IDM message to his wife? Did he drop his DTC, and had to fat finger a complex deep attack? 

To be fair I bought the book but never read it. The hyperbole killed it for me after the first pages. 

 


Edited by Sinclair_76
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54 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Maybe he’s building all his routes and plugging in all his members manually?

 

So Ed Macy was highly exaggerating then you say?

 

That in some way would be kinda disappointing. Not because I want a 30min startup procedure (I'd probably go for the "Arma" sort of startup as soon as I figured out how 😋), but because I was hoping that the book I'm reading is realistic... ☹️

 

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7 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Dunno, never read it. I’d say super inexperienced crew doing every extended procedure in order that they’re read  you can expect probably a 15ish min run up maybe a little longer first few times as you go to find where everything is on key pages and such. Hell maybe I’m underplaying it. But the process isn’t hard. It’ll probably be different for dcs because bs is doing bs stuff and fs is doin fs stuff where if you’re sp in dcs it’ll probably be a bit longer. 

 

Just read that piece again in his book, to see if I missed an indication of "a figure of speech". But none whatsoever. I don't think I'm allowed to exactly quote his words, but nothing indicates that he meant to exaggerate.

It can be read in chapter "handover" (can't say which page as I'm using the e-book version)

 

Could it be that the British (AgustaWestland) version of the D is more complicated to start than its original US brother?

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~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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