not planned Would You Be Interested in a DCS Subscription Service for Bonus Content?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

15 hours ago, StevanJ said:

Well, looking at the poll at least we know that ED is losing a 15% stream of revenue every month.
Thats 15% that you personally wouldnt need to even worry about.

With the monthly revenue, being brought in they could offer both teams full time jobs.
No more part time working on modules..

While that'd be nice, I believe HB is fulltime, as is.

Other operations may not be able to go fulltime. 

[Northstar98]

21 hours ago, StevanJ said:

Well, looking at the poll at least we know that ED is losing a 15% stream of revenue every month.

 

No, we don't know that, because this is dependent on how much they take from a hypothetical subscription, versus how much they take from selling stuff on the e-shop.

 

And the poll has a little under 8% of people in favour of it, with a little over 5% considering it but on the fence.

[StevanJ]

48 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

No, we don't know that, because this is dependent on how much they take from a hypothetical subscription, versus how much they take from selling stuff on the e-shop.

 

And the poll has a little under 8% of people in favour of it, with a little over 5% considering it but on the fence.

 

So we know that from this forum we have a definite 8% of poll users up for a subscription, a 5% of users are waiting to see the offer on the table.

 

This means that every month we don't have a subscription ED is losing the money people want to give to them.

 

Looking at the other forums and how that's populated and other developers in the way they approach customers with a 'subscription' approach.

 

I think we can definitely see there is a market for this, albeit a small one to start with.

 

 

[AndyJWest]

Forum polls are generally a poor way to determine the view of forum contributors, and an even poorer way to determine the views of the wider customer base. From the numbers participating, it seems self-evident that most people who will have seen the poll weren't sufficiently interested in the idea to consider it worth voting, one way or the other. 

 

All the poll really tells us is that currently there are maybe 15 people who might participate in a hypothetical subscription service. 

[Tippis]

8 hours ago, StevanJ said:

This means that every month we don't have a subscription ED is losing the money people want to give to them.

That does not follow.

People can already give money to ED if they want to. So there's very little opportunity to change that hypothetical loss even if it existed, and you don't know if it does.

You also haven't accounted for the cost  and loss of income such a move would entail.

 

8 hours ago, StevanJ said:

I think we can definitely see there is a market for this, albeit a small one to start with.

We really can't, because the poll too poorly constructed, uses too small a sample, and relies entirely on self-selection even among that sample, for it to say anything definitively.

You end up with a sample market size with something along the lines of a 300% margin of error.   

[Callsign112]

6 hours ago, Tippis said:

We really can't, because the poll too poorly constructed...

 

Part of why it is too poorly constructed is that it is actually misleading. Some people might have read "YES I WANT TO SUPPORT DCS!" and just selected it.

 

And the survey itself is also misleading because it is set up so that it could actually be understood in two different ways.

 

Some users might understand that in addition to buying modules, they would be donating a small amount of money to support DCS World in return for extra content/privilege.

 

Others might understand that by donating a small fee each month, everyone would receive use of asset packs/maps and such for free.

 

In the case of the first group, the 8% might be happy to donate what ever they deem fair, but in the case of the second group, the 8% might dwindle down to zero % when they find out the size of the donation that would have to be made each month in order to make the concept work.

 

I think at one point, Stevan actually references EA as the game studio that sparked the concept for him. EA and its business model do not = ED and its business model. But the concept loses absolutely all its juice when you actually give it a hypothetical.

 

I am pretty sure any subscription based system would be a lot more than anyone would be willing to pay, but say ED could somehow get it down to $1.50/month. Why would anyone want to pay even that per month for something they could just buy outright for $15.00? And what about the people that already bought the assets pack?

 

The concept has little to no merit.  

 

I am more than happy to buy the assets pack and be done with it. At the end of the day, the assets pack is such a small fraction of the commitment I have to make to really enjoy DCS World.

[Furiz]

19 hours ago, StevanJ said:

 

So we know that from this forum we have a definite 8% of poll users up for a subscription, a 5% of users are waiting to see the offer on the table.

 

This means that every month we don't have a subscription ED is losing the money people want to give to them.

 

Looking at the other forums and how that's populated and other developers in the way they approach customers with a 'subscription' approach.

 

I think we can definitely see there is a market for this, albeit a small one to start with.

 

 

 

I think you are trying to give credit to your idea too hard, some ideas are good some are not. ED is not losing any money if you look at your pool.

 

You are looking at this from a very wrong perspective, you didn't take into account how much ED would lose if they turn to subscription model, so you have 8% that would pay that sub but those 8% are still buying modules, they didn't give up on this simulator, so ED is not losing any money.

On the other hand, you have 92% that would not pay that subscription so that means ED would lose 92% of its payer base.

 

You cant make a business model without research, and I know you didn't do any research on this, cause if you did you wouldn't post here, you would know that's not how it is done,

if you want to propose a business model you need to do your research, work out a model and go to the management and say hey guys I'm (insert name), I work at (company) and I have a business model that I think you should consider, if you are interested we can schedule a presentation.

 

That's how this is done, so stop prolonging this bad idea pls and move on.

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

I think you are trying to give credit to your idea too hard, some ideas are good some are not. ED is not losing any money if you look at your pool.

 

You are looking at this from a very wrong perspective, you didn't take into account how much ED would lose if they turn to subscription model, so you have 8% that would pay that sub but those 8% are still buying modules, they didn't give up on this simulator, so ED is not losing any money.

On the other hand, you have 92% that would not pay that subscription so that means ED would lose 92% of its payer base.

 

While you can't say 92% would straight up leave (though I would) if DCS went subscription, you're basically spot on.

 

It seems pretty clear looking at the poll, and the polls of previous threads suggesting the same thing, that subscriptions are incredibly unpopular among the overwhelming majority of people voting.

 

It seems likely that DCS going subscription would turn people away, and that people would quit, and it's likely that this would negate any advantage offered by a subscription and may in fact be an overall detriment.

 

The OP nor any supporters of the idea haven't provided any analysis on the current model vs a proposed subscription, nor has a pricing model been proposed. In this hot mess of a thread, I did do some crude analysis (see here) on a proposed model which had 3 tiers:

1. Free, but limited access with maybe free trials (what we have now, minus the limited access)
2. $10-15 per month, full-ish access (but you still have to pay extra for EA modules) - about as much as ED makes from selling content, assuming everybody buys all newly released content full price (they don't but I'm going by best case scenarios for both models), though the current system has none of the limitations.
3. $20-30 per month, unlimited access as well as what I describe as P2W content and access to exclusive merch - twice as expensive over the current system, with IMO, no advantages over it (who here wants exclusive P2W content?).

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

You cant make a business model without research, and I know you didn't do any research on this, cause if you did you wouldn't post here, you would know that's not how it is done,

if you want to propose a business model you need to do your research, work out a model and go to the management and say hey guys I'm (insert name), I work at (company) and I have a business model that I think you should consider, if you are interested we can schedule a presentation.

 

In any case, ED most likely would've done the research and they certainly know their numbers, their answer to every subscription proposed here? No.

[StevanJ]

20 hours ago, Tippis said:

That does not follow.

People can already give money to ED if they want to. So there's very little opportunity to change that hypothetical loss even if it existed, and you don't know if it does.

You also haven't accounted for the cost  and loss of income such a move would entail.

 

We really can't, because the poll too poorly constructed, uses too small a sample, and relies entirely on self-selection even among that sample, for it to say anything definitively.

You end up with a sample market size with something along the lines of a 300% margin of error.   

The Poll is vague on purpose to push discussion.. If you genuinely think you could do a better poll i would honestly welcome it.

Im very open to your 'options on a new poll', perhaps you could put one together?
 

14 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

Part of why it is too poorly constructed is that it is actually misleading. Some people might have read "YES I WANT TO SUPPORT DCS!" and just selected it.

 

And the survey itself is also misleading because it is set up so that it could actually be understood in two different ways.

 

Some users might understand that in addition to buying modules, they would be donating a small amount of money to support DCS World in return for extra content/privilege.

 

Others might understand that by donating a small fee each month, everyone would receive use of asset packs/maps and such for free.

 

In the case of the first group, the 8% might be happy to donate what ever they deem fair, but in the case of the second group, the 8% might dwindle down to zero % when they find out the size of the donation that would have to be made each month in order to make the concept work.

 

I think at one point, Stevan actually references EA as the game studio that sparked the concept for him. EA and its business model do not = ED and its business model. But the concept loses absolutely all its juice when you actually give it a hypothetical.

 

I am pretty sure any subscription based system would be a lot more than anyone would be willing to pay, but say ED could somehow get it down to $1.50/month. Why would anyone want to pay even that per month for something they could just buy outright for $15.00? And what about the people that already bought the assets pack?

 

The concept has little to no merit.  

 

I am more than happy to buy the assets pack and be done with it. At the end of the day, the assets pack is such a small fraction of the commitment I have to make to really enjoy DCS World.

The asset pack has 0 to do with this poll, please keep on topic.
 

9 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

I think you are trying to give credit to your idea too hard, some ideas are good some are not. ED is not losing any money if you look at your pool.

 

You are looking at this from a very wrong perspective, you didn't take into account how much ED would lose if they turn to subscription model, so you have 8% that would pay that sub but those 8% are still buying modules, they didn't give up on this simulator, so ED is not losing any money.

On the other hand, you have 92% that would not pay that subscription so that means ED would lose 92% of its payer base.

 

You cant make a business model without research, and I know you didn't do any research on this, cause if you did you wouldn't post here, you would know that's not how it is done,

if you want to propose a business model you need to do your research, work out a model and go to the management and say hey guys I'm (insert name), I work at (company) and I have a business model that I think you should consider, if you are interested we can schedule a presentation.

 

That's how this is done, so stop prolonging this bad idea pls and move on.

Its not my idea.

I was curious and my opening statemement is 'This is Hypothetical. And just for fun.'...
 

5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

While you can't say 92% would straight up leave (though I would) if DCS went subscription, you're basically spot on.

 

It seems pretty clear looking at the poll, and the polls of previous threads suggesting the same thing, that subscriptions are incredibly unpopular among the overwhelming majority of people voting.

 

It seems likely that DCS going subscription would turn people away, and that people would quit, and it's likely that this would negate any advantage offered by a subscription and may in fact be an overall detriment.

 

The OP nor any supporters of the idea haven't provided any analysis on the current model vs a proposed subscription, nor has a pricing model been proposed. In this hot mess of a thread, I did do some crude analysis (see here) on a proposed model which had 3 tiers:

1. Free, but limited access with maybe free trials (what we have now, minus the limited access)
2. $10-15 per month, full-ish access (but you still have to pay extra for EA modules) - about as much as ED makes from selling content, assuming everybody buys all newly released content full price (they don't but I'm going by best case scenarios for both models), though the current system has none of the limitations.
3. $20-30 per month, unlimited access as well as what I describe as P2W content and access to exclusive merch - twice as expensive over the current system, with IMO, no advantages over it (who here wants exclusive P2W content?).

 

In any case, ED most likely would've done the research and they certainly know their numbers, their answer to every subscription proposed here? No.

 

This was good insight, thanks for bringing this into the discussion.

Edited September 21, 2021 by StevanJ

[Furiz]

34 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

The Poll is vague on purpose to push discussion.. If you genuinely think you could do a better poll i would honestly welcome it.

Im very open to your 'options on a new poll', perhaps you could put one together?

 

 

No thanks, pools here are there to entertain the masses.

[StevanJ]

6 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

No thanks, pools here are there to entertain the masses.

Well yeah, Pools are pretty entertaining, especially on a sunny day..
Thanks for that..

[Tippis]

51 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

The Poll is vague on purpose to push discussion.

Then don't presume to draw any conclusions from it. You can't have it both ways.

[StevanJ]

Just now, Tippis said:

Then don't presume to draw any conclusions from it. You can't have it both ways.

Everyone can have it both ways..
Were in a forum, which actually means 'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.'

It doesnt matter who's right or wrong, its just a bit of fun.
Its only a discussion and youre welcome to explain how you'd have conducted the poll, and with what options.
Its genuinely welcomed.

[Callsign112]

Well to start, you should make the survey more clear. You told me I am off topic for mentioning the assets pack. So I guess one of the first issues is to qualify what you mean by DLC. Do you mean all modules, or just certain modules? The next issue that pops out at me is your very first question.

 

You should also make it more clear what supporting a monthly subscription means. "Yes I want to support DCS", or "Yes, I would prefer to pay a monthly subscription to have unlimited access to all DCS World modules". Do you see the difference?

[Tippis]

6 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Everyone can have it both ways..

No. You can't on the one hand suggest that we can draw any generalised conclusions from your poll and then, when that approach doesn't work out for you, turn around and say that, oh no, it was deliberately bad, and especially not then try to turn around again and save the first claim when the second approach also doesn't work that well.

 

You get to choose: either it was deliberately made bad, in which case we can conclude nothing from it, or it was an attempt to do something serious and should be treated as such, in which case we still can't draw any conclusion from it — or at least not the one you want — because of the huge flaws and the spectacularly large margin of error that your preferred conclusion would entail. One of the two.

 

6 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Its only a discussion and youre welcome to explain how you'd have conducted the poll, and with what options.

Clustered randomized selection; off-forum; sample size of, oh, 500+; with discrete, mutually exclusive, non-opinionated and judgmental, and preferably dichotomised options; probably 4–5 groups of 10+ branching questions each, dealing with outcomes of different scenarios (if yes -> how much; if not -> at what loss). You know, proper poll stuff.

[StevanJ]

Just now, Callsign112 said:

Well to start, you should make the survey more clear. You told me I am off topic for mentioning the assets pack. So I guess one of the first issues is to qualify what you mean by DLC. Do you mean all modules, or just certain modules? The next issue that pops out at me is your very first question.

 

You should also make it more clear what supporting a monthly subscription means. "Yes I want to support DCS", or "Yes, I would prefer to pay a monthly subscription to have unlimited access to all DCS World modules". Do you see the difference?

The Question is 'So, alot of people want to support DLC, Would you be interested in Donating a small fee every month for Bonus Content? ie Special Skins, One off Asset Models for the Mission Editor, Special Forum Flair, Custom Missions, and maybe some miles points too?'

Either say 1) yes you want to pay towards the stuff on offer, 2) No you want to pay for just modules, or Say 3) youre on the Fence, and explain what youd want for the subscription cost.

Im not telling people they can have all the modules, thats down to the individual to click 3) and explain that they would like that option..

1 minute ago, Tippis said:

No. You can't on the one hand suggest that we can draw any generalised conclusions from your poll and then, when that approach doesn't work out for you, turn around and say that, oh no, it was deliberately bad, and especially not then try to turn around again and save the first claim when the second approach also doesn't work that well.

 

You get to choose: either it was deliberately made bad, in which case we can conclude nothing from it, or it was an attempt to do something serious and should be treated as such, in which case we still can't draw any conclusion from it — or at least not the one you want — because of the huge flaws and the spectacularly large margin of error that your preferred conclusion would entail. One of the two.

 

Clustered randomized selection; off-forum; sample size of, oh, 500+; with discrete, mutually exclusive, non-opinionated and judgmental, and preferably dichotomised options; probably 4–5 groups of 10+ branching questions each, dealing with outcomes of different scenarios (if yes -> how much; if not -> at what loss). You know, proper poll stuff.

Ive not suggested anything was bad.
Your opinion is welcome.

Thank you.

Yeah thats alot of work, im only looking for the discussion, youre welcome to go that route if it interests you that much though..

[Jenson]

I'm willing to pay a one time purchase for additional skins or other special content but not monthly/annual subscription. 

[Callsign112]

On 9/21/2021 at 1:02 PM, StevanJ said:

The Question is 'So, alot of people want to support DLC, Would you be interested in Donating a small fee every month for Bonus Content? ie Special Skins, One off Asset Models for the Mission Editor, Special Forum Flair, Custom Missions, and maybe some miles points too?'

Either say 1) yes you want to pay towards the stuff on offer, 2) No you want to pay for just modules, or Say 3) youre on the Fence, and explain what youd want for the subscription cost.

Im not telling people they can have all the modules, thats down to the individual to click 3) and explain that they would like that option..

Ive not suggested anything was bad.
Your opinion is welcome.

Thank you.

Yeah thats alot of work, im only looking for the discussion, youre welcome to go that route if it interests you that much though..

@StevanJ, I was just giving you an example of how to make your survey questions clearer. That is why I said... "Do you see the difference?".

 

To be honest, it is not really clear to me what your intentions are, like you mention "one off Asset models for the Mission Editor" as a perk for donating, but I know you are very vocal about people being locked out of your missions because they don't have access to the assets.

 

So does this mean you are changing your view on the paid for Assets pack?

Edited September 24, 2021 by Callsign112

[StevanJ]

4 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

@StevanJ, I was just giving you an example of how to make your survey questions clearer. That is why I said... "Do you see the difference?".

 

To be honest, it is not really clear to me what your intentions are, like you mention "one off Asset models for the Mission Editor" as a perk for donating, but I know you are very vocal about people being locked out of your missions because they don't have access to the assets.

 

So does this mean you are changing your view on the paid for Assets pack?

 

 

Dearest Callsign112, Its been so long since we've shared many a discussion.

Perhaps, if you arent clear on a topic, maybe you should just leave it alone.
I cant help but feel like you follow me around, Which is okay too.

My intention? To discuss the topic. To seek out what people value, and compare it to previous discussions and see if players are interested in anything like whats mentioned in the opening question...

In my day, You used to get a free Airfix kit, with every copy of Takeoff Magazine. So why not free skins, with every purchase of DCS eZine?

Changing my view in what way?
Do PLEASE keep the discussion on topic, if youd like to take the conversation away from the topic, feel free to PM me, or start another topic, and tag me..
Many thanks, Dear Callsign112..

 

[Callsign112]

Following you around? Unless you look something like the girl in the attached image, I don't think you have much to be worried about. But joking aside, it is a forum, and I am reading it. So when you post something, I think it is fair to say that people reading the forum will see it.

 

I will drop out of your subscription thread if it is causing you that much stress, but to be fair all I wanted to do was point out to you as a respondent that the survey could be taken multiple ways. This is never a good thing in social science research because it makes the data you collected worthless.

 

And I was just surprised to say the least that after being so vocal about paid assets packs you would suggest it as a perk. Like the rest of the survey, I guess I just find that a bit confusing.

 

 

[Eugel]

On 9/19/2021 at 1:03 PM, StevanJ said:

Well, looking at the poll at least we know that ED is losing a 15% stream of revenue every month.

 

No, we don´t know that. We know that 15% of the people taking the poll would potentially pay for a subscription.

Depending on the amount of the subscription fee, this number would be lower. I bet even the people who voted with "yes" won´t pay 20 $ per month for skins or forum avatars or the like.

And all the monthly bonus content has to be made in the first place. So if the fee is too low, it might not pay for that.

 

Also, what the poll tells us is that 85% might be unhappy about such a subscription. To be honest, I don´t think many would leave the game because of this, but unhappy customers tend to spend less money.

[Mars Exulte]

   Eugel, the people who make these kinds of polls are rarely capable of grasping that sort of nuance, thus the poorly worded selections. They want people to agree with their ideas, typically weight the selections to their ''favor'', ignore the results if they're unfavorable, and decry people who either disagree with or point out flaws in their reasoning/selections.

 

   It's like Reddit karma farming, without the karma (thank god, I used to get PMs ''like for like?'' all the time).

[StevanJ]

14 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

   Eugel, the people who make these kinds of polls are rarely capable of grasping that sort of nuance, thus the poorly worded selections. They want people to agree with their ideas, typically weight the selections to their ''favor'', ignore the results if they're unfavorable, and decry people who either disagree with or point out flaws in their reasoning/selections.

 

   It's like Reddit karma farming, without the karma (thank god, I used to get PMs ''like for like?'' all the time).

I liked this comment..

[Veseroth]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:38 PM, StevanJ said:

So, alot of people want to support DLC, Would you be interested in Donating a small fee every month for Bonus Content? ie Special Skins, One off Asset Models for the Mission Editor, Special Forum Flair, Custom Missions, and maybe some miles points too?

To add: This is Hypothetical. And just for fun.

 

Why would anyone want to support a company that treats it's customers like dirt.

[Furiz]

13 minutes ago, Veseroth said:

Why would anyone want to support a company that treats it's customers like dirt.

 

Dont know what happened so you have to say that but I never felt that way, their staff is alwas helpufull.