Radar and Sam sites . ??

[KoN]

So what's the lowest you can fly in real life below radar . 

Is it 200 meters . 

[DD_Fenrir]

In relation to what parameters? Peacetime training? Actual all out war? What radar system are you trying to avoid? What terrain around the system and your aircraft?

 

All of these can define how low you can or have to fly to avoid radar detection.

[razo+r]

Depends on the system I guess. 

 

Pretty sure some can detect you much lower than 200m

[KoN]

Well I'm flying at 70m above tree top level and Sam's are picking me up locking me and firing and getting good hits . 

and I'm very low in my Hind .

 

[DD_Fenrir]

7 minutes ago, KoN said:

... above tree top level...

 

 

Here's the issue.

 

If you're going to play in SAM MEZs (a bad idea in any aircraft) you need to be flying around trees rather than over. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Lace]

70m above the trees is not very low.  Especially for a helicopter. 

 

Edit - I know this isn't a Hind, but any excuse to post this classic video

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Lace

[Northstar98]

11 minutes ago, KoN said:

Well I'm flying at 70m above tree top level and Sam's are picking me up locking me and firing and getting good hits . 

and I'm very low in my Hind.

 

What SAM systems/RADAR systems are you going up against?

 

And to answer your question it strongly depends on the RADAR system, as well as background clutter, as well as numerous other factors.

 

Bear in mind though that outside of a select few modules, RADARs in DCS are uber simplified, and almost none of their RL limitations are simulated - the best you get is a detection range in look-up and look-down, a mimimum radial velocity limit (think notch filter) and an update rate - that's it.

 

But as DD_Fenrir said, when getting close to air defences, you really want to be putting something in between you and them, and only pop-up sparingly, though 70m doesn't sound that low at all, it's certainly low but for helicopters you kinda want to be really low.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Northstar98

[Lt_Jaeger]

I know from the SAM System I used to work with, flying 70m in a helicopter gave me sufficient time to get a coffee and ruin someone's day after that. 

 

Usually helos are a hard target for a SAM System, but you have to fly in accordance. We used to be "scared" of helos and hoped the AAA was staying sharp. 

[ngreenaway]

Really depends on the sam system , and in the one i worked with: how its configured , whether the operators have slow movers filtered out, what the terrain was behind you (its possible to be masked by terrain while completely in the open)

[Mikeck]

9 hours ago, KoN said:

Well I'm flying at 70m above tree top level and Sam's are picking me up locking me and firing and getting good hits . 

and I'm very low in my Hind .

 

70m is pretty high for a helo (considering how high it’s RCS, how slow it moves and how low it CAN fly. You should be at tree-top or below. So maybe 10-20 meters.

in the end, the radar can see you unless there is a hill between you and it….70m or not.

DCS does not model the curvature of the earth so there is no horizon 

[Northstar98]

7 hours ago, ngreenaway said:

Really depends on the sam system , and in the one i worked with: how its configured , whether the operators have slow movers filtered out, what the terrain was behind you (its possible to be masked by terrain while completely in the open)

 

Unfortunately though, DCS basically models none of it, the only limitations (or even parameters) the RADARs of SAMs have is the following:

• Detection distance in both upper and lower hemispheres (presumably look-up/look-down)
• Minimum radial velocity of the target
• Update rate

That's it - it's very simplified.

 

7 hours ago, Mikeck said:

DCS does not model the curvature of the earth so there is no horizon 

 

It does use a workaround to approximate realistic LOS on a curved Earth, but I'm not sure how well it works.

[Cmptohocah]

In DCS this value is 10m above ground. If you fly at or below this height no SAM will engage you.

[ngreenaway]

17 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Unfortunately though, DCS basically models none of it, the only limitations (or even parameters) the RADARs of SAMs have is the following:

• Detection distance in both upper and lower hemispheres (presumably look-up/look-down)
• Minimum radial velocity of the target
• Update rate

That's it - it's very simplified.

its true, in many  ways the systems dont work as in real life, but i pretty much expect that. theres a lot of specialized info thats either not available, or doesnt make much sense outside of the air defense field. the amount of work needed to get them all right outstrips what we can reasonably expect them to spend on a lower priority such as this .

 

"reasonably well" should be good enough

[Northstar98]

8 hours ago, ngreenaway said:

its true, in many  ways the systems dont work as in real life, but i pretty much expect that. theres a lot of specialized info thats either not available, or doesnt make much sense outside of the air defense field. the amount of work needed to get them all right outstrips what we can reasonably expect them to spend on a lower priority such as this .

 

"reasonably well" should be good enough

 

True, it's just when you get into the fact that DCS doesn't account for things like whether a RADAR is 2D or 3D, pulse, pulse with MTI or pulse-doppler etc.

 

Let alone approximating sidelobes or other properties of the beam.

[Mike_Romeo]

Here a website that lists all the SAM systems in DCS and there detection limits:

Eastern system https://www.airgoons.com/w/DCS_Reference/Air_Defences/Eastern
Western systems https://www.airgoons.com/w/DCS_Reference/Air_Defences/Western