seat height changes? gunsight drifts off hud during attacks.

[silent one]

Im a returnee and have found it odd that I appear to be sitting so high that my gunsight ends up and off the hud.  I have searched the forum.  If I reduce my seat height I loose data at the bottom of the hud.   Am I doing something wrong? Has something changed ? I dont remember this bother before.  Also is there a way to bind the setting once done as rejigging my cockpit every mission kind of sucks

 

Im sorry if the answers obvious but Ive been away a long time and its a steep re-learning curve

[Swift.]

How steep and fast are you attacking?

[Yurgon]

8 hours ago, silent one said:

I appear to be sitting so high that my gunsight ends up and off the hud.

 

As I recall it, the HUD representation wasn't that good in VR, so it was completely re-done. I assume in VR it's pretty great now, but in 2D the projection has changed so that something is always cut off. I think some people with access to the real aircraft have commented that they can see all HUD contents without shifting their head in the real jet, while others have said it's normal that some stuff may be obscured and that a little head movement may be necessary.

 

In either case, I sometimes duck in front of my computer in order to see the CCIP Gun Cross during a 30 Degree strafe, and that does feel a little odd, just like the text being cut off at the upper end of the HUD during startup.

 

Using TrackIR, my workaround is to shift my head a little so I can read whatever I'm interested in, but I hope ED will come around and revisit the 2D HUD representation.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Yurgon

[jaylw314]

The default position did seem to get significantly higher in VR.  The HUD field of view seems to be from the nose to just above the altitude/airspeed text in the HUD.  The boresight circle is only visible if I lower my head and lean forwards, and the horizon is at least 5 degrees above the top edge of the HUD.

 

I used to lower my seat because it seemed so wrong, but in retrospect, the masking of the HMCS makes more sense.  With a lower position, the HMCS would display over the upper part of the HUD, but with the default position, the masking is correct.  So I suspect this was actually their intention--no idea if this is the correct position IRL.

Edited August 30, 2021 by jaylw314

[Worrazen]

Seriously, VR stuff shouldn't be forced on 2D mode, this has to be separated completely out with an option that is tied to the "Enable VR" and if it's disabled, all VR specific things should be gone as well.

 

Is this something to do with F/A-18C HUD drifting all over the place? I'm flying level and the HUD is like to the right totally off for some reason, twitches back into center momentairly.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Worrazen

[silent one]

My initial issue was the gun pipper being so high that on a shallow attack it creeps off the huds top.   Its annoying. I have noticed like Worranzen that I get the A10 hud wandering of to the sides.  Not everyone wants to go VR. The recent stats showed the vast majority of players arnt VR . So its frustrating if this is getting foisted on us for them

Edited August 31, 2021 by silent one

[Yurgon]

13 hours ago, silent one said:

I have noticed like Worranzen that I get the A10 hud wandering of to the sides.

 

Worrazen referred to the Hornet's HUD. I don't fly the Hornet enough and don't know that particular problem.

 

In the A-10C, the HUD will completely displace the pitch ladder to one side to give pilots direct feedback on crosswind conditions. That is normal and has always been the case. Is that what you're seeing? You can reference the waypoint or steerpoint info page on the CDU to check the wind and see if you're in a crosswind. If that's not what you're seeing, unless it's directly tied to the seat height change, I'd suggest to find a related thread or open a new one for that problem.

[Caldera]

Silent,

 

As an option...

 

This is a snap view that I created when I had the same problem that you do.  It is set at maximum zoom and I always get 100% of the HUD 100% of the time. 

 

Because the view is static I have a button configured to my HOTAS that I can press when the target is with in the HUD.  I simply release the button to return to TrackIR view which makes switching views very convenient. This view is very useful A-G for gun runs and CCIP bombing attacks.  It is also useful A-A when the target is not maneuvering to wildly.

 

I have modified a lau file to be able to get this view to correctly work.  Let me know if you are interested.

 

Caldera

[jaylw314]

20 hours ago, Worrazen said:

Seriously, VR stuff shouldn't be forced on 2D mode, this has to be separated completely out with an option that is tied to the "Enable VR" and if it's disabled, all VR specific things should be gone as well.

 

Is this something to do with F/A-18C HUD drifting all over the place? I'm flying level and the HUD is like to the right totally off for some reason, twitches back into center momentairly.

 

 

Just to be clear, I was pointing out that the new default position in VR is pretty close to what you're describing.  It's not better for or unique to VR.  You can't see the whole HUD display without moving your head down, and on the ground you can't even see your TVV.

 

It's not the case the view was changed to improve VR.  It's a change that makes this an issue for everyone.  I thought I recall reading somewhere that this was done because it was a more realistic position, but I can't find that reference now.

[Worrazen]

I'm a bit skeptical of monoscopic vs stereoscopic view rendering changing things that much to make things so different that you lose out half the HUD, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

With no expertise, I would think just what could there be to make that kind of a difference? I mean all it should do in terms of areas you could see (coverage) just a bit different, the angles change a little bit and that's it, that's the only factor that should ever change, 2 cameras instead of 1 in the center, right?

If that's not the case then I think either the VR or the non-VR or both modes in DCS are not correct in their underbelly of the head position in the first place which I think is another problem of the way the modelling and positioning is done and not with the mono or stereo views themselfs or the rendering part.

 

In monoscopic non-VR mode, the camera is simply above the nose at the center between the eyes, while in stereoscopic VR mode, you have 2 cameras, one for each eye positioned exactly where the eyes are. Is  there anythign more to this, everything else should be part of the 3D modelling and positioning of objects which should be common to both modes, right?

 

So I guess when I said that stereoscopic VR stuff should be kept separate, now that I thought around it, I actually have no idea why would there be a need to do that considering so much of what makes the view should be common to both, no?

 

Then, if changing the common stuff fixes one to look very good but worsens another then something shouldn't be right, if this common stuff in theory holds true to how it should be (whether or not DCS is respecting it currently) and it shouldn't produce such disproportionate differences between modes when the common stuff has a minor adjustment.

 

I might say, the only* way a better look in VR and a worse look in non-VR right after a fix makes any sense is the fact that we have been enjoying an unrealistically good set of circumstances in non-VR for all this time. Kinda the worst case scenario for a seasoned simmer, similarly to the very good targeting pod camera rendering, with the realistic simulation of digital zoom in the future (as one yt channel mentioned, but I personally don't remember official mention) it'll be a significant downgrade in the detail of the image, quite a nuisance one could say in practice, but can't protest it due to it's realism accuracy, but we should be well experienced by now dealing with these changes and taking the time to slowly adapt to how it should be and rid ourselfs of the old habits.

 

The reason why we got all those developers elsewhere (I distinctly remember John Carmack) saying how you need to do all of the changes and this and that in VR to make it look right, is because the 2D monoscopic view for ages was all hacky in terms of camera/head/gun position and was never done realistically right in the first place in all of those top FPS games/engines out there, but DCS is making new modules real 3D accurate from scratch, so if realism is always a top priority, 2D monoscopic mode should all work out out of the box as well as 3D VR stereoscopic with minor adjustments.

So I find it frustrating why is there such a struggle with VR and DCS and all of this, is the base 3D modelling that off? Are the VR tools good and mature enough?

I feel bad for ED having to go through this huge ordeal with VR when they shouldn't, considering  the correct 3D model positioning should automatically help.

 

I really do hope that this is figured out and tech and techniques is developed so that future module development starts off without having these issues later on, if there were such an scenario or problem, not saying there really is one, a bit of speculation in various parts to this rant here.

Additionally,I think the HUD rendering tech it self may also play a part, if it's not where it should be yet. Perhaps it may need to be realistically simulated or something, but wouldn't that already be the expected case for a key component, or it's not that simple?

 

 

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

 

Just to be clear, I was pointing out that the new default position in VR is pretty close to what you're describing.  It's not better for or unique to VR.  You can't see the whole HUD display without moving your head down, and on the ground you can't even see your TVV.

 

It's not the case the view was changed to improve VR.  It's a change that makes this an issue for everyone.  I thought I recall reading somewhere that this was done because it was a more realistic position, but I can't find that reference now.

 

Right, but as you can see, it can get confusing if we don't make sure to communicate it clearly what it is that we're complaining about and what it is that they're trying to fix and how, just saying that in general, I wasn't following these discussions unfortunately, I don't want to look like a wise guy in, but just trying to give it a bit of a hand if I can.

 

The question in this case as per what you said is whether the common (both view modes)  view behavior is the correct one as it would be in real life, in other terms, realism accuracy, then yes I do understand and agree with that, if that's the case what the fix was about.

 

I think the struggle for everyone, for every player out there, is to correctly identify the justified/realistic difference between VR and non-VR and filter that out of the comparison when trying to check for bugs or realism inaccuracies.

 

In laymans terms, 2D non-VR monoscopic view and it's consequences are these very realism inaccuracies themselfs, but we're suppose to filter these out, because they are a key practical sacrifice in order to be able to use the product in a practical way on the real life system limitations the software simulator is deployed on.

 

It's more of a logical take, It's evening so I don't have the time right now to dig into this,  I'll read the backlog and refresh myself on the happenings in this area before trying to be more wise about it.

 

Hope it makes sense and helps a bit what I was trying to explain in the post above. If not, maybe someone else could summarize/reword it and explain it better.

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Worrazen

[jaylw314]

FWIW, here are some screenshots from VR.  I reset my VR position to the default position immediately before hand.

 

This is the right eye:

 

Here's the left eye:

 

 

And finally, I moved my right eye to the centerline:

 

 

As you can see, the top of the HUD is significantly below the horizon and the TVV and boresight circle are impossible to see without leaning down and/or forwards (although not quite as low as I recalled earlier without the benefit of screenshots).   Here's the same starting view in 2D mode:

 

 

To me, it's pretty darned close to identical, maybe the viewpoint is a tiny bit lower, but it's definitely not the case that the VR default view was made perfect at the expense of the 2D default view.  Whatever change was made was made to both equally.

[skypickle]

@Caldera I would like to try that mod. I am tired of jiggling my head because I can't see the HUD. Instructions please?

 

Actually I just found this thread which has a couple of lua files that helped a lot of people

 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by skypickle
added link

[MIghtymoo]

Agree this is annoying.

 

When I go gun runs, I just lower my seat down to see the gun pipper properly.

Loose some of the visibility of the heading tape.

[Caldera]

I do this same thing for CCRP bomb drops...

 

Caldera

[jaylw314]

In VR, I instinctively lean forwards during gun runs, and then the whole HUD becomes visible.  I suspect they do that in real life, too, but I've never seen cockpit footage of the pilot during an attack run...

[Caldera]

Yeah, don't know either, well maybe...

 

If they are pulling G's or maneuvering rapidly, I would bet that they are back in the seat.  However, from the video's that I have seen, the pilot always seems to adjust the harness to the right amount of slack.

 

Caldera

Edited September 7, 2021 by Caldera

[jaylw314]

On a stabilized gun run, they're only experiencing 1G

On the other hand, if they're maneuvering and pulling G's, a lot of stuff in the HUD ends up near the bottom!