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Is ED letting down their VR customers?? Yes I'm venting!


RackMonkey

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Of the three flight sims I use (DCS, IL-2 and MSFS) IL-2 needs far less fiddling to get very good frame rates and maxed visuals but the ground textures don’t look as good as the DCS Channel map for instance. DCS requires a lot more fiddling with settings but that brings rewards. Once the map gets busy my frame rates can drop rather quickly however. I look forward to Vulkan and what that should bring to VR in DCS. MSFS is still new so I’ll give it time but it is a bit of a pain to get looking good while maintaining reasonable frame rates. I’ve been flying the DCS Spitfire on the Channel map lately and am seriously impressed with the quality of that map and with the Spitfire.

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In my fumbling way to get the G2 working properly with my RIG. I did the following things:

 

Reseated my CPU, applied new thermal paste. 

Deleted options.lua, removed all traces of Oculus Software

Installed WMR for Windows, WMR for Steam, SteamVR

Followed Speed of Heat's guide

Experienced major crashes, strange glitching and performance bugs. (Probably due to previous user error when attempting to streamline my OS)

Installed a new CPU Watercooling solution. Rechecked that everything was properly ship-shape from a hardware point of view. 

Lastly I tried to reinstall Windows, which I did, however Windows update decided to automatically download 20H2 and this completely destroyed my performance on my PC to the point where it now boots up for 45 seconds and even file explorer lags. 

 

This where I am now. "Clean" (lol) Windows install, which feels like it's broken. No DCS World installed. 

 

I have a 3000+ Euro PC which is basically a huge dust collector at this point. Do I blame Eagle Dynamics for this? No, i do not. Absolutely not. If there is blame to be assigned it's probably equally shared between Microsoft and myself. 

 

Do I wish I had never heard of Eagle Dynamics and DCS World at this point? Yes. Yes I do. 


Edited by Lurker

Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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People's feelings in this regard are very understandable. If I look at my own experience: 20 years ago I loved fiddling around with settings and micro-managing things to get every last bit of performance out.

Now I just want things to work. Reality is though, that 1 driver update or Windows Update can tank performance so much and getting back to what you're used to is often more complicated than it seems at first glance.

 

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My in-game DCS settings (PD 1.0 SteamSS 76%):

 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Lurker:

In my fumbling way to get the G2 working properly with my RIG. I did the following things:

 

Reseated my CPU, applied new thermal paste. 

Deleted options.lua, removed all traces of Oculus Software

Installed WMR for Windows, WMR for Steam, SteamVR

Followed Speed of Heat's guide

Experienced major crashes, strange glitching and performance bugs. (Probably due to previous user error when attempting to streamline my OS)

Installed a new CPU Watercooling solution. Rechecked that everything was properly ship-shape from a hardware point of view. 

Lastly I tried to reinstall Windows, which I did, however Windows update decided to automatically download 20H2 and this completely destroyed my performance on my PC to the point where it now boots up for 45 seconds and even file explorer lags. 

 

This where I am now. "Clean" (lol) Windows install, which feels like it's broken. No DCS World installed. 

 

I have a 3000+ Euro PC which is basically a huge dust collector at this point. Do I blame Eagle Dynamics for this? No, i do not. Absolutely not. If there is blame to be assigned it's probably equally shared between Microsoft and myself. 

 

Do I wish I had never heard of Eagle Dynamics and DCS World at this point? Yes. Yes I do. 

 

Just checked updates and 21H1 seems to be available. Maybe give that a try if you can't roll back to a previous Win version?

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17 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Just checked updates and 21H1 seems to be available. Maybe give that a try if you can't roll back to a previous Win version?

 

Yep, downloading and creating a bootable USB right now


Edited by Lurker

Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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I reached the point where I just wanted to enjoy flying DCS in VR without all the endless fiddling, so I've just settled on running the headset that my current AMD 5700XT graphics card can run until I can upgrade it.

 

I went from a Rift S to a Quest 2 to a Reverb G2. After all the reliability issues and replacements I had with the G2, I eventually got a refund and went back to the Quest 2, but I got fed up the battery charging and limited flight time with that, as well as the tweaking that needed because of it's increased resolution over the Rift S, and ended up back using the Rift S. So my DCS VR path is: Rift S - Quest 2 - G2 - Quest 2 - Rift S! 😄 

 

Is the instrument clarity of the G2 great? Yes. Do I miss it? No Is the lack of screen door of the Quest 2 and G2 over the Rift S great? Yes Do I really notice it anymore in the Rift S when I'm concentrating on flying? No. The only module I really struggle to read the instruments with, even with VR zoom, is the Gazelle because of it's really tiny text.

 

Honestly, I'm really enjoying flying with my Rift S again. I've always found it more comfortable than the Quest 2 and G2, I can turn on a few nice settings again, like Ultra clouds, buildings and scenery move past smoothly, without any ghosting, when I look out of the canopy and I'm getting a really smooth and solid 40FPS, even flying low over Syria in helicopters, or in intensive missions with lots of AI assets.

 

I know it'll seem like a backwards step to some and I'll probably re-visit a headset upgrade in the future, if a better graphics card ever becomes available again, but in the meantime I'm really enjoying DCS in VR again.

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Well I managed to get my system sorted. Creating a 21H1 bootable USB did the trick. Now to see if a fresh install of DCS World, in addition to WMR, WMR for Steam and SteamVR will provide me with acceptable performance with the G2 in VR. 

Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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54 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 in addition to WMR, WMR for Steam and SteamVR will provide me with acceptable performance with the G2 in VR. 

 

Honestly, just to get some VR going, needing to run WMR for Windows, WMR for Steam, SteamVR and the bulk of Steam settings and upscaling and downscaling and what not other crap is not the road to go if you ask me. No G2 or one of those WMR/Steam headsets for me, just way too much hassle. I'll stick with my Rift S. 

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20 hours ago, Lurker said:

In my fumbling way to get the G2 working properly with my RIG. I did the following things:

 

Reseated my CPU, applied new thermal paste. 

Deleted options.lua, removed all traces of Oculus Software

Installed WMR for Windows, WMR for Steam, SteamVR

Followed Speed of Heat's guide

Experienced major crashes, strange glitching and performance bugs. (Probably due to previous user error when attempting to streamline my OS)

Installed a new CPU Watercooling solution. Rechecked that everything was properly ship-shape from a hardware point of view. 

Lastly I tried to reinstall Windows, which I did, however Windows update decided to automatically download 20H2 and this completely destroyed my performance on my PC to the point where it now boots up for 45 seconds and even file explorer lags. 

 

This where I am now. "Clean" (lol) Windows install, which feels like it's broken. No DCS World installed. 

 

I have a 3000+ Euro PC which is basically a huge dust collector at this point. Do I blame Eagle Dynamics for this? No, i do not. Absolutely not. If there is blame to be assigned it's probably equally shared between Microsoft and myself. 

 

Do I wish I had never heard of Eagle Dynamics and DCS World at this point? Yes. Yes I do. 

 

 

You poor bastard. It's stories like this which are why I generally offer a counter-perspective when I see a "DCS VR is perfect! It runs amazingly smooth! If you can't get it to run well, it's your hardware/software/ineptitude at setting it up". 

 

Some people find DCS VR fantastic. Others do not. That's why my advice is always try before you buy. I wish I had - I have an AU$1100 Reverb G2 sitting here gathering dust because of people claiming DCS VR is perfect.

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2 hours ago, GunSlingerAUS said:

 

You poor bastard. It's stories like this which are why I generally offer a counter-perspective when I see a "DCS VR is perfect! It runs amazingly smooth! If you can't get it to run well, it's your hardware/software/ineptitude at setting it up". 

 

Some people find DCS VR fantastic. Others do not. That's why my advice is always try before you buy. I wish I had - I have an AU$1100 Reverb G2 sitting here gathering dust because of people claiming DCS VR is perfect.

 

Well to be fair, the G2 in DCS is really an amazing experience when it works. It's just a huge hassle to get it to work, and really requires some beefy hardware. I did manage to solve my system problems yesterday, also downloaded DCS world and a few modules\maps so fingers crossed I will be flying today after work. 

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Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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First rule of troubleshooting is to start with the simplest things first.  You don't want to use a sledgehammer to kill a fly.  🔨🪰

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I have an fairly old i7700k OC to 4.8GHz and a 2080ti with 32G of ram with XMP enabled and I have to say that my DCS performance is fantastic. Not flawless of course but once I am airborne and heading off to the field of conflict it is pretty smooth unless I am passing someone head to head in close quarters. I compare this to P3D V5 and MSFS and DCS is way ahead. I can and do use the others but it is a comparative slide show. 

 

As we head toward the much feted Vulkan implementation, I do wonder if it might be a case of careful what you wish for. I'd be fairly confident that the first few iterations may be less than desirable, I hope I'm wrong. 

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Having the G2 plugged into a USB 3.2 Gen2 Type C with data transfer speeds of 10Gbps is also the ticket along with the new hardware.

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29 minutes ago, Burt said:

Having the G2 plugged into a USB 3.2 Gen2 Type C with data transfer speeds of 10Gbps is also the ticket along with the new hardware.

 

Why would it matter what type of port it's using? Isn't USB3 enough? Other than the positional stuff what kind of data is it sending through the USB anyway? The really important stuff I.E. the "picture" needs to get outputted through the graphics card port, otherwise that huge graphics pipeline and bus is completely wasted...


Edited by Lurker

Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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When I had the 2080ti in my machine, it had a USB C connector right on the card which worked great.  The new 3090 I installed didn't have that, so I tried plugging my G2 into the motherboard USB-C 3.1 and had all kinds of issues.  Many times the G2 wouldn't power up at all and I would get an error message on WMR.  Other times it would power up, and then randomly crash after a few minutes.  I used the USB-C adapter that was in the G2 box and plugged it into my powered USB 3.0 card (which is plugged into a PCIe slot and directly powered by my 1200W PSU) and that fixed those issues.  I think its more about bus power than it is about speed.  AFAIK, the separate power box for the G2 only supplies power to the display backlighting...with everything else (non-video-wise) being done over USB.


Edited by eaglecash867

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7 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Well to be fair, the G2 in DCS is really an amazing experience when it works. It's just a huge hassle to get it to work, and really requires some beefy hardware. I did manage to solve my system problems yesterday, also downloaded DCS world and a few modules\maps so fingers crossed I will be flying today after work. 

 

Yes this.

I really enjoyed my G2 and loved running DCS with it - now I am using Vive Pro 2 and it is just as good for me with a little more FOV.

Don B

 

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23 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Yep, downloading and creating a bootable USB right now

 

Make sure you install your motherboard's chipset drivers right off your motherboard manufacturer's website first thing.  Like the moment you get a desktop.  Chipset first.  I usually skip most of the motherboard software installs but the chipset driver is usually better than the generic "chipset type" driver MS provides.

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5 hours ago, Willie Nelson said:

I have an fairly old i7700k OC to 4.8GHz and a 2080ti with 32G of ram with XMP enabled and I have to say that my DCS performance is fantastic. Not flawless of course but once I am airborne and heading off to the field of conflict it is pretty smooth unless I am passing someone head to head in close quarters. I compare this to P3D V5 and MSFS and DCS is way ahead. I can and do use the others but it is a comparative slide show. 

 

As we head toward the much feted Vulkan implementation, I do wonder if it might be a case of careful what you wish for. I'd be fairly confident that the first few iterations may be less than desirable, I hope I'm wrong. 

 

 

These type posts are my favorite.  DCS runs fantastic!  Until you start doing something besides flying around an empty area

 

I am surprised at the Reverb performance issues.  My G1 runs better than my OG Rift because I could run PD1.0 (or even less)  and have a better image than the Rift cranked up.

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1 hour ago, CptBligh said:

 

I am surprised at the Reverb performance issues.  My G1 runs better than my OG Rift because I could run PD1.0 (or even less)  and have a better image than the Rift cranked up.

At 100% SteamVR the G2 is significantly higher resolution than the G1. The lenses are optimised at higher values with the same res screen. It can give some visual benefit over a G1 but at a cost in performance and psychologically running at significantly lower than 100% feels like you are missing out. So it doesn’t surprise me that compared to the G1 some are struggling with G2 performance.

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I don’t think it is disingenuous to say DCS in VR is fantastic but I agree there needs to be a caveat in terms of what you can do in DCS with VR.

 

For me with a 8600K and 2080Ti - pretty high end but not the latest tech, there are many single player instant action missions and reasonably lightweight downloaded user missions I can run. I have quite a range of aircraft so more than enough to keep me occupied for the foreseeable future given how much I have to learn with a decent amount of content.

 

I do appreciate though if you are a DCS veteran used to playing complex multiplayer missions VR is likely to struggle performing wise, to the point of being unplayable.

 

It is a tough call as personally I find the experience second to none but players need to invest in VR with their eyes open which hopefully with our experiences we can provide a balanced view.

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Performance issues accepted, but the graphical fidelity versus 2D (read shimmering, lack of AA whatever you want to call it) is what I really still fail to understand. And it's so obvious I can't fathom why it just seems to go completely unacknowledged. As I keep bleeting I guess it's a side effect of having VR support mashed into an engine which was never designed with VR in mind. But it needs addressing, and the lack of official engagement on the matter perplexes me.

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15 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Well to be fair, the G2 in DCS is really an amazing experience when it works. It's just a huge hassle to get it to work, and really requires some beefy hardware. I did manage to solve my system problems yesterday, also downloaded DCS world and a few modules\maps so fingers crossed I will be flying today after work. 

 

Glad to hear you got it to a point that you are happy with. Alas I have not, so my G2 is merely taking up shelf space at the moment, and is occasionally dusted off when friends come over. I'm hoping I find the DCS VR helo experience more to my liking though, am going to give it a shot soon.

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On 9/9/2021 at 11:36 PM, AlpineGTA said:

So my DCS VR path is: Rift S - Quest 2 - G2 - Quest 2 - Rift S! 😄 

 

 

I also enjoyed using Rift S. 

 

Quest 2 has better clarity and with unfettered wireless airlink, but it does have minor noticeable latency than wired Rift S. Maybe it can be solved by using a wire to Quest 2 but I haven't done it yet. 

 

With a mod called universal VR reshader, clarity is improved by increasing sharpness and contrast (IMO better than DCS default scene), however, I'm not actually using it as I just want to keep the original games files and avoid potential bugs when the game get update. At least it proves that the VR performance is still enhanceable by only adjusting shader algorithm, I do hope ED would adopt such things and improve the VR experience, while I believe they also need to test it on a broader range before simply apply any changes into the game. 

 

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7 hours ago, Jenson said:

 

I also enjoyed using Rift S. 

 

Quest 2 has better clarity and with unfettered wireless airlink, but it does have minor noticeable latency than wired Rift S. Maybe it can be solved by using a wire to Quest 2 but I haven't done it yet. 

 

With a mod called universal VR reshader, clarity is improved by increasing sharpness and contrast (IMO better than DCS default scene), however, I'm not actually using it as I just want to keep the original games files and avoid potential bugs when the game get update. At least it proves that the VR performance is still enhanceable by only adjusting shader algorithm, I do hope ED would adopt such things and improve the VR experience, while I believe they also need to test it on a broader range before simply apply any changes into the game. 

 

 

Yeah that would be nice - I too do not run any mods.

Don B

 

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Just to report back, I've managed to get pretty decent performance from my G2, it's now at the same level as I used to have in Rift S at the cost of some lowered in-game graphical settings, but a much higher resolution. The clarity difference is night and day though, even though the sweet spot is smaller. To me it's also more comfortable due to my IPD which is probably very near or even maybe slightly higher than 68cms. In the Rift S this was causing a bit of eye strain. With the G2 that is also gone, which is a big relief. 

 

A little caveat. I could probably get this performance to go even a bit higher with mods, but I dislike mods in DCS for one very simple reason. It's hard enough enjoying and playing the beta with the constant tinkering to the "vanilla" beta game, and this beta gets patches pretty often so I'd much rather not deal with potential problems\repairs etc.

 

As for shimmering. A lot of it can be eliminated by MSAA x2 and supersampling using Pixel Density in game, or SteamVR resolution per eye etc. It's a tradeoff. While it is annoying, I have managed to get it down to a very acceptable level. Much more so than in the Rift S. Yes there are problematic static models in the game, the powerlines and towers come to mind, but happily they do not shimmer nearly as badly now as they used to, which does mean that the devs are making tweaks here and there. 

 

Finally VR improvements are coming. It's beyond insane at the amount of pure horsepower that we keep throwing at this game and it keeps asking for more. The devs are aware, and the entire engine is getting some big rewrites. Don't expect miracles people, but as someone who bought a 3090RTX purely for DCS VR, as have many here, I think that they know how disappointed we are all going to be if something is not done about this. The graphics market is not exactly very consumer friendly at the moment what with all the price hikes, and hardware shortages. We just need a little patience. 

 

With all of that said, one big drawback of VR still remains, that I struggle with daily. However it's got nothing to do with DCS World. How do you guys keep from getting a damn sweaty face when your G2 heats up and gets all nice and toasty? 🙂

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Specs: Win10, i9-9900KF@5Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2  Joystick. 

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