"Stamina/fatigue" system for pilot

[Revi]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

As long as it is an option that can be deactivated by mission designers or for single player campaigns, ok.

Though I think we still have enough disadvantages compared to a real pilots. No peripheral vision, no feeling of orientation in the cockpit (VR is an advantage here), no way to operate switches and stuff without looking at them, not able to distinguish switches  by feel, no feeling of G-forces building up. Especially the last one is interesting... so how do I judge if I currently pull 6G or 8G continuously other than G-loc happening? Currently you judge by time and keep it at the point, where the tunnel vision holds steady. Now with a dynamic time (invisible health bar) what indicates I am close to G-loc? I can't feel how much I am exhausted, the visual reference could pass the threshold at any time and judging time left, by experience doesn't work.

 

Good points!

I agree with the part where you questioned how we would be able to see how far in the "stamina" bar we are currently. 
My initial thought was to have a "stamina" bar on screen somewhere, but immediately walked away from that idea since well.. it would make the whole Sim feel a bit arcady.

 

I need to think about that, i am not sure currently what would be a good way to show this to the player, it could be blurriness? 

The more fatigued you are, the more blurry the vision? 
Or have a tunnel vision which instead of black, would be grey? With the opacity increasing the lower you are on the scale. 

 

But i feel like you have some very good points, do we need this? I do not feel like it is something we really need atm, since the current implementation is indeed good, however, if possible i would love to see it in the future. 

 

 

[MAXsenna]

 
Exactly that, to add to that, you would have to grind your way up that G tolerance lvl which would make you feel like you are at work rather than enjoying a sim. That happened to some very very popular game titles, they lost lots of people due to that grind issue.
Imagine if ED decided to add lvls to unlock certain weapons, HMD, TGP etc... that would drive me away for sure. So any kind of lvling in DCS in my opinion wouldn't do any good.
 
As for that warmup idea, maybe if it can be implemented well yea why not.
 
 

Just wait for it. Remember last year's discussion? Same ideas as this one. It culminated when someone suggested that the longer you had been playing DCS (flight hours, which you currently can modify), the better the G tolerance.
As long as it's optional, you can role-play to your hearts content. I don't mean to be negative, but I surely hope ED doesn't waste one single second on ideas like this, until AI, multithreading, general bug fixing, more modules, more maps etc. have been done.


Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Cmptohocah]

18 minutes ago, Revi said:

But i feel like you have some very good points, do we need this? I do not feel like it is something we really need atm, since the current implementation is indeed good, however, if possible i would love to see it in the future.

This is exactly what we need!
What we currently have is a "joke" as our pilots drift in and out of consciousness endless times without any consequences. At the moment it's quite unrealistic. Very popular WWII sim has this sorted out quite nicely. Namely all pilots start of fresh, but if you pull too many G's, for too many times your G tolerance goes down and you start being affected sooner. They also implemented loss of hearing, blurred vision and other effects. What we have in DCS is a vague approximation of the real thing. 
Also at the moment, I don't think that cockpit ergonomics has any effect on G tolerance in DCS, so what is the point of F-16 having inclined pilot seat and static control stick?
 

[SharpeXB]

I like the idea, as long as it’s done well. Just assume your virtual pilot is in much better physical condition than the average sim player

This effect forces you to understand BFM much better and simple concepts like pursuit curves become realistically important. You can’t just pull hard into every bandit. Especially in WWII fighters where you aren’t wearing a G suit, you can’t just execute this sudden energy excursion to snap a shot, you’ll knock yourself unconscious. This kind of physiology effect makes the game feel real and visceral.

[shagrat]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

I like the idea, as long as it’s done well. Just assume your virtual pilot is in much better physical condition than the average sim player

This effect forces you to understand BFM much better and simple concepts like pursuit curves become realistically important. You can’t just pull hard into every bandit. Especially in WWII fighters where you aren’t wearing a G suit, you can’t just execute this sudden energy excursion to snap a shot, you’ll knock yourself unconscious. This kind of physiology effect makes the game feel real and visceral.

But isn't that what's implemented, already? You pull quick and hard, you black out, more or less instantly... You pull deliberate building up Gs you see the tunnel vision ('blood draining") and if you stay close to the threshold for long you black out, because you can't fight it any more, or you need to reduce pull to lessen G-forces.

[SharpeXB]

56 minutes ago, shagrat said:

But isn't that what's implemented, already?

I never seem to black out in DCS. I fly the Hornet and M-2000C mostly. Maybe I’m just in the habit of not going there or the FBW keeps you out of that zone. These aircraft simulate G suits I’m sure. Maybe I should try WWII. 
 

Oh wait, I fly the F-86 too. Definitely that one will knock you out. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Furiz]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I never seem to black out in DCS. I fly the Hornet and M-2000C mostly. Maybe I’m just in the habit of not going there or the FBW keeps you out of that zone. These aircraft simulate G suits I’m sure. Maybe I should try WWII. 
 

Oh wait, I fly the F-86 too. Definitely that one will knock you out. 

 

 

 

As far as I know Hornet has G limiter that needs to be deactivated to exceed certain G lvls.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

What we currently have is a "joke" as our pilots drift in and out of consciousness endless times without any consequences. At the moment it's quite unrealistic.

 

Ok, let's talk about why this isn't a joke then.   You cannot feel fatigue, you cannot even feel how your aircraft is performing.

Want realism?  If you G-LOC you're out of the fight, period.  How do we simulate this?  Lag for control input?   Certainly hard to simulate the resulting pain and brain fog.  Just kill the pilot?  Never recover?

What's going to happen to the poor people who have this bad habit of pushing the stick forward?  (don't answer that, it's just fun to think about)

 

Blurred vision and loss of hearing are poor substitutes for what's happening, and as far as your flight and fight is concerned, those handicaps just became permanent.  You may as well eject.

 

Or maybe everyone should be required to fly with a G-Suit that gives'em the squeeze, then you're permanently lose BFM to anyone how has the slightest bit more of more tolerance.

 

There's no good solution for either making this more 'interesting' (wrong goal anyway IMHO) or more realistic.   There's no need for some sort of g-strain mini-game, we have plenty other mini-games to play.

Edited August 27, 2021 by GGTharos

[Cmptohocah]

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Ok, let's talk about why this isn't a joke then.   You cannot feel fatigue, you cannot even feel how your aircraft is performing.

Want realism?  If you G-LOC you're out of the fight, period.  How do we simulate this?  Lag for control input?   Certainly hard to simulate the resulting pain and brain fog.  Just kill the pilot?  Never recover?

You cannot feel fatigue but you can simulate its effects.
From what I understand, G-LOC is a complete loss of consciousness (consciousness - really difficult word to spell btw), so you simulate it by cutting off any connection between you and the virtual pilot. I don't know much when it comes to recovery from it, but I am sure RL data can be found easily.
 

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

What's going to happen to the poor people who have this bad habit of pushing the stick forward?  (don't answer that, it's just fun to think about)

Suppressed my self from answering.
 

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Blurred vision and loss of hearing are poor substitutes for what's happening, and as far as your flight and fight is concerned, those handicaps just became permanent.  You may as well eject.

Not permanent. They slowly creep in as the loss of consciousness progresses. I don't see any issue with that. You lost a fight 'cause of it? Who cares? This is what would happen in real life also.
 

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Or maybe everyone should be required to fly with a G-Suit that gives'em the squeeze, then you're permanently lose BFM to anyone how has the slightest bit more of more tolerance.

Everyone should be affected the same. Well, there that thing about F-16 I mentioned, but let's not get into too many details at this point. We already have the G-suits, otherwise the virtual pilot would black-out at around 4-5 G.
 

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

There's no good solution for either making this more 'interesting' (wrong goal anyway IMHO) or more realistic.   There's no need for some sort of g-strain mini-game, we have plenty other mini-games to play.

 

There is a great need to implement this, if we want to get closer to realism. See, this aspect of air combat is currently completely neglected. In DCS it's on the same level as Chaff or IFF - it's too simplified. Having fatigue/progressive G sensitivity will make you change your tactics and adopt to more realistic style of flying as you will be constrained by the same limitations that real fighter pilots are.
We keep yanking that stick all day long and come back to normal state as if the pilot is a robot.
Think of it as adding that extra layer of realism that separates an arcade from a simulator. For example, you can pull max G in a Su-27 loaded with bombs and nothing will happen, but try that in a MiG-21 and the bombs will detach after G limit is reached/exceeded. Don't know about you, but latter seems much more realistic to me.

[GGTharos]

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

You cannot feel fatigue but you can simulate its effects.
From what I understand, G-LOC is a complete loss of consciousness (consciousness - really difficult word to spell btw), so you simulate it by cutting off any connection between you and the virtual pilot. I don't know much when it comes to recovery from it, but I am sure RL data can be found easily.

 

Ok, let's get more detailed.  The data for G-LOCing is there and ED is using it.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Not permanent. They slowly creep in as the loss of consciousness progresses. I don't see any issue with that. You lost a fight 'cause of it? Who cares? This is what would happen in real life also.

 

Ok, read the cause and effect here carefully:   When you GLOC, and you recover, as far as your flight/fight is concerned, the GLOC effects are permanent.  Loss of motor control and other fun stuff.  There won't be any heroic come-backs, there's no 'stamina bar' that fills back up.  You're f'd.

The fun part is that the same happens to a lesser degree when you start getting into grey-out. I don't know the details of this though.

 

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Everyone should be affected the same. Well, there that thing about F-16 I mentioned, but let's not get into too many details at this point. We already have the G-suits, otherwise the virtual pilot would black-out at around 4-5 G.

 

I mean literally in your gaming chair

 

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

There is a great need to implement this, if we want to get closer to realism.

 

There isn't.  Here's my IMHO:  The entire premise for implementing this, the so called need, is stems from utterly unrealistic BFM competition.

 

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

We keep yanking that stick all day long and come back to normal state as if the pilot is a robot.

 

There are a few dogfights in history which lasted a while, even in the jet era - they exist, like a 10 minute dogfight between some MiG-17s and an F-8.  It could happen.

But the vast majority of the fights we're interested in lasted less than a minute.   Again, IMHO, unrealistic need for something that is unrealistically fostered in the game.

 

17 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Think of it as adding that extra layer of realism that separates an arcade from a simulator. For example, you can pull max G in a Su-27 loaded with bombs and nothing will happen, but try that in a MiG-21 and the bombs will detach after G limit is reached/exceeded. Don't know about you, but latter seems much more realistic to me.

 

Yeah, but is it?   Are you sure those Su-27 pylons can't take it?  Maybe they're rated for that weight/force?

 

The point is, unless you want to be really harsh (and maybe you do, which is fine) there is no practically good way to simulate g tolerance levels.  You'll always be at mini-game level, never realism level.   It's already following STOHL curves.  So the question becomes, when do you reset the stamina bar?  IMHO, not until you switch planes at minimum.  If you've started graying out, you should never recover in that flight.

 

That's my opinion until I get better informed.

Edited August 27, 2021 by GGTharos

[Cmptohocah]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Yeah, but is it?   Are you sure those Su-27 pylons can't take it?  Maybe they're rated for that weight/force?

Not to stray too much off topic, but yes, Flanker has a limit on allowed G forces for different load-outs. Even when you strap on pure A2A armament there are still G limits depending on how many and which pylons are used. G limits are also coupled with speed restrictions - we don't have those either. Same goes for MiG-29. All of this is from their respective operating manuals.
 

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

The point is, unless you want to be really harsh (and maybe you do, which is fine) there is no practically good way to simulate g tolerance levels.  You'll always be at mini-game level, never realism level.   It's already following STOHL curves.  So the question becomes, when do you reset the stamina bar?  IMHO, not until you switch planes at minimum.  If you've started graying out, you should never recover in that flight.

 

That's my opinion until I get better informed.

 

Yes, you are right. I really do like to fly hard-core and as real as it gets. That's the reason I fly MP exclusively, 'cause nothing can substitute human adversaries, at least not yet.
You would get a full "stamina bar" reset only after switching planes yes. Once you "screw up" that's it, your options are limited after that and any X (insert correct number here) Gs cause you to experience lowered G tolerance. You can have a look at this video here, where a real life fighter pilot is talking about how it feels to pull serious Gs in a real fighter compared to DCS:

 

As I said that other simulator covered this topic very well and it makes a world of difference. I've been flying that other sim's old version, where the G effects are basically the same as we have in DCS, for years and I can tell you that the new version forces you to think twice on how you fly your virtual aircraft. I was hoping that ED can do the same in DCS.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Cmptohocah
My English is not the goodest

[okopanja]

It is possible to recover relatively quickly, but effects of recovery are highly individual, therefore it can be debated what would be the "standard" reaction.

 

This is why all airforces test the entry candidates and subsequently train their pilots. All of them are supposed to sustain at least certain level.

Some of them are quite proud on how many Gs they can sustain.

 

But several years later they simply can not keep up anymore and get grounded.

 

For a start I recommend watching the following video. Please note the G indicator, as well as their face expressions, eyes, hands and legs.

 

 

 

and then the second   (you will be able to distinguish relevant ones from those that were made just for fun):

 

 

 

 

The first thing I noticed with DCS compared to some other titles they published in the past, is that pulling high Gs has virtually no effect, except when you get hit by the missile and the aircraft starts spinning.

 

If these effects were implemented, many of the tactics we see in DCS would not be feasible anymore.

 

Btw: centrifuges often smell badly...

Edited August 27, 2021 by okopanja

[Cmptohocah]

I mean, look at this guy's face at 9G. He won't be looking around the cockpit much at this force not to mention head movements, like checking his six.
 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Cmptohocah
Corrected G force value

[SharpeXB]

38 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

I mean, look at this guy's face at 9G. He won't be looking around the cockpit much at this force not to mention head movements, like checking his six.

DCS should definitely add force feedback VR…. for realism!

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

I mean, look at this guy's face at 9G. He won't be looking around the cockpit much at this force not to mention head movements, like checking his six.
 

 

 

 

Actually that guy is a pretty good material, he held for almost 10 seconds before passing out, the other guy collapsed immediately on 7G.

Checking your six is physically impossible here, there is a good reasons there are mirrors in those cockpits.

 

If you listen to the first video (it is really great example) they are mainly focused on 3 things:

1. can you continue to hold the stick still (so you complete the maneuver)?
2. how much your field of view has narrowed down and with which effects?
3. how fast do you recover to perform some of the basic cognitive operations and do you still suffer the after-effects?

Notice that below the G indicate there are following strings:

1. Guy who fainted at 7G: Initial TNG (Initial Training?)
2. Guy who fainted after 10s in 9G: OI TNG?
3. Lady:  CFET?

I believe these indicate the training level they have reached, but real US pilot would know what they really mean. Now, average Joe is usually not capable of passing the initial entry tests: many fail in centrifuge tests. Some of them do pass, and if they get cocky about it, they get a chance at second spin, afterwards they have to remove them from the centrifuge. Instructors do not tolerate unprofessional behavior.

 

At least 50% (or possibly even more) of the fighter pilot is their physical fitness. Needles to say not all of them get to fly high performance fighter jet. So the french pilot from GS video is absolutely right: you have to be trusted in order to be let into an expensive airplane.

 

 

[shagrat]

The main issue remains: How do you simulate "feeling" exhaustion?

I am not talking about simulating the effects of exhaustion, but getting feedback from your body, so you know you can't go on and pull longer/more because you will certainly G-loc?

In the end it would boil down to a guessing game of "What is my current stamina?" ...who dares wins or loses depending on a more or less unknown level in an "exhaustion Mini-Game". That doesn't sound any bit realistic, just like adding random dice rolls...

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Yes, you are right. I really do like to fly hard-core and as real as it gets. That's the reason I fly MP exclusively, 'cause nothing can substitute human adversaries, at least not yet.

 

So ... IMHO MP is most often the opposite of hard-core.  PM if you want to discuss.  I agree with the part where nothing substitutes human opponents but I don't want to pollute this thread too much with other stuff.

 

2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

You would get a full "stamina bar" reset only after switching planes yes. Once you "screw up" that's it, your options are limited after that and any X (insert correct number here) Gs cause you to experience lowered G tolerance.

 

Sure, ok.

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, okopanja said:

It is possible to recover relatively quickly, but effects of recovery are highly individual, therefore it can be debated what would be the "standard" reaction.

 

In every study of GLOC I've read, you're not going to be recovering any time soon.  You'll regain your consciousness and you can operate but you're not 'recovered'.

 

2 hours ago, okopanja said:

But several years later they simply can not keep up anymore and get grounded.

 

Or maybe they're a little dehydrated, they didn't sleep well enough or they didn't eat well enough, maybe they're a little bit sick that day, have a cold or something.

 

The G-warmup maneuver isn't there to just get your body an extra g of tolerance, it's there more to help you tune yourself up for your AGSM and evaluate your own g-tolerance at that moment.

[Killshot0597]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

How do you simulate "feeling" exhaustion?

I might've already said this earlier but an idea I had was pretty simple. The more and longer Gs  you pull the quicker and sooner you start to black out. The visible feed back is that black darkness that creeps in from the sides. Push yourself too far and pay the price. As it is now, you could sustain a turn and maintain a certain percentage of darkness indefinitely. An "an invisible stamina bar" would make pulling off stunts like this gradually start to work less and less effectively. 

So to summarize, Pulling too many Gs for too long would cause the virtual pilot to start to black out sooner and easier with continued sustained Gs over a period of time. The pilot's stamina would gradually be depleted and would start to replenish slower and slower as exhaustion sets in. Say you win the BFM and splash the bandit. You fly level for a bit and the pilot will eventually recover back to his "pre-BFM" levels. So there'd actually be 2 invisible bars, stamina and exhaustion. With sustained Gs draining stamina and exhaustion increasing which negatively impacts stamina regeneration. 

With exhaustion this opens up a can of new worms possible? Should long flights cause the pilot to gradually get exhausted already? Honestly, with most people's flight lasting for maybe more or less 1 hour. We'd probably not even notice it, exhaustion would only play a factor if the pilot had to fly for 12-13 hours or even 24 hour trip. Which obviously isn't happening in DCS. It's for this reason, exhaustion should impact the "stamina regeneration" more the more exhausted the pilot is. With a relatively calm return flight home slowly draining the exhaustion bar perhaps not all the way down to zero? Perhaps landing the plane to rearm and refuel would "revitalize" the virtual pilot and return the pilot back to "Pre-mission" conditions? If not the player has the option to either continue flying with his exhausted pilot if the player so chooses? So many questions and so many possibilities.

I just honestly don't like this mentality that just because something is too complicated, therefore we shouldn't simulate it at all. 

[Killshot0597]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

In every study of GLOC I've read, you're not going to be recovering any time soon.  You'll regain your consciousness and you can operate but you're not 'recovered'.

This is why I believe there should be 2 "invisible bars" Stamina and exhaustion" as I mentioned above.
 

 

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Or maybe they're a little dehydrated, they didn't sleep well enough or they didn't eat well enough, maybe they're a little bit sick that day, have a cold or something.

 

The G-warmup maneuver isn't there to just get your body an extra g of tolerance, it's there more to help you tune yourself up for your AGSM and evaluate your own g-tolerance at that moment.

This is the tricky part IMO. Where do we draw the line? It's a tough question, I'd say ED should try to get a baseline average among pilots' tolerances based on those centrifuge tests. I believe pilot stamina and exhaustion needs to be simulated in some way at least, it will never be 1-1 but it is better than not having it at all.

That being said, if all players' stamina drain and exhaustion increase at the exact same rates. Then it is up to the individual pilot's to make use of these resources and obstacles to get the upper hand against their opponent!

On a side note ED could use this similar logic for different AI difficulties. Rookie AI pilot won't be able to turn so well and may even black out on rare occasion. All the while an Ace AI would know his body's limits well and be able to push the boundaries better! Now to avoid AI turning into gods of BFM, I'd say Player pilots have the same "stats" as Ace AI pilots do so it'd be an even match at least.

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

In every study of GLOC I've read, you're not going to be recovering any time soon.  You'll regain your consciousness and you can operate but you're not 'recovered'.

As for "recovery" in those videos you can see that time to start responding normally is different from person to person as well as the state they are after. I think we should particularly focus on those effects that cause more lasting effects (e.g. lower G-tolerance, blurred vision, throwing up).

 

Related to the studies, could you please provide the link if these are public documents?

[Wing]

Great suggestion @Revi, a huge part of the fighter pilot experience is physically exhausting - and as such should be some sort of dynamic that is respectively simulated in DCS as well when pulling such intensive G maneuvers.

[shagrat]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb KIllshot0597:

I might've already said this earlier but an idea I had was pretty simple. The more and longer Gs  you pull the quicker and sooner you start to black out. The visible feed back is that black darkness that creeps in from the sides. Push yourself too far and pay the price. As it is now, you could sustain a turn and maintain a certain percentage of darkness indefinitely. An "an invisible stamina bar" would make pulling off stunts like this gradually start to work less and less effectively. 

So to summarize, Pulling too many Gs for too long would cause the virtual pilot to start to black out sooner and easier with continued sustained Gs over a period of time. The pilot's stamina would gradually be depleted and would start to replenish slower and slower as exhaustion sets in. Say you win the BFM and splash the bandit. You fly level for a bit and the pilot will eventually recover back to his "pre-BFM" levels. So there'd actually be 2 invisible bars, stamina and exhaustion. With sustained Gs draining stamina and exhaustion increasing which negatively impacts stamina regeneration. 

With exhaustion this opens up a can of new worms possible? Should long flights cause the pilot to gradually get exhausted already? Honestly, with most people's flight lasting for maybe more or less 1 hour. We'd probably not even notice it, exhaustion would only play a factor if the pilot had to fly for 12-13 hours or even 24 hour trip. Which obviously isn't happening in DCS. It's for this reason, exhaustion should impact the "stamina regeneration" more the more exhausted the pilot is. With a relatively calm return flight home slowly draining the exhaustion bar perhaps not all the way down to zero? Perhaps landing the plane to rearm and refuel would "revitalize" the virtual pilot and return the pilot back to "Pre-mission" conditions? If not the player has the option to either continue flying with his exhausted pilot if the player so chooses? So many questions and so many possibilities.

I just honestly don't like this mentality that just because something is too complicated, therefore we shouldn't simulate it at all. 

I understood Revi's idea as "exhaustion" through pulling Gs, not being tired, dehydrated or just having a bad day.

I am not sure, but isn't the current system already with some sort of timer when you go over a certain amount of Gs, so when you pull too hard, you don't just have the tunnel vision, but the screen blacks out and if you keep that too long you suffer G-loc, the same when you pull over the maximum G threshold?

[GGTharos]

35 minutes ago, okopanja said:

As for "recovery" in those videos you can see that time to start responding normally is different from person to person as well as the state they are after. I think we should particularly focus on those effects that cause more lasting effects (e.g. lower G-tolerance, blurred vision, throwing up).

 

Recovery from GLOC is 20-80 seconds, yes it's you're right person to person and random.  The other effects - mainly the brain fog and reduced processing power ... again the only way to model any of this will be lame.  Yep, @KIllshot0597 has a neat idea with tracking multiple conditions and it's fine.   I expect it'll be turned off often like say ... random damage/failures.   But I could also be very wrong about that.

 

35 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Related to the studies, could you please provide the link if these are public documents?

 

I'll try to look some up for you, but for starters try 'USAF GLOC Study PDF' in google.

Edited August 27, 2021 by GGTharos

[WRAITH]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:33 PM, Revi said:

Hey guys!
I just had a very interesting conversation with a couple of people on the DCS discord about implementing a system that would simulate the pilot fatigue resulted from pulling sustained Gs. 

To summarise this, a very global and broad idea:

-Have a invisible "stamina" bar, which drains when pulling Gs, from lets say 3G up or more, and refills when not pulling Gs, the amount of time needed, or values can all be discussed in here. 
The lower the "stamina" bar, the faster you black out when pulling high Gs, besides that, some effects of lets say blurriness could also be implemented, the higher the "stamina" bar, the longer is takes to black out. 

 

I personally feel like such a system would greatly improve BFM and well, the whole flying experience, since it would force you to think before you do something, "Do i want to pull high Gs from the start to get a advantage?" "Do i want to play the long game and try to fatigue my opponent?" etc etc.

 

Feel free to join in and brainstorm with me here, also, i am interested to hear your opinion on why, or why not this would be a good/bad idea. 

 

 

 

+1 but not a bar just improved modelling keeping more simple less game like, if you will.

 

Examples

 

https://youtu.be/GhGucWnyORU

 

https://youtu.be/tMVNWZ4FzwM

Edited August 29, 2021 by WRAITH