"Stamina/fatigue" system for pilot

[Revi]

Hey guys!
I just had a very interesting conversation with a couple of people on the DCS discord about implementing a system that would simulate the pilot fatigue resulted from pulling sustained Gs. 

To summarise this, a very global and broad idea:

-Have a invisible "stamina" bar, which drains when pulling Gs, from lets say 3G up or more, and refills when not pulling Gs, the amount of time needed, or values can all be discussed in here. 
The lower the "stamina" bar, the faster you black out when pulling high Gs, besides that, some effects of lets say blurriness could also be implemented, the higher the "stamina" bar, the longer is takes to black out. 

 

I personally feel like such a system would greatly improve BFM and well, the whole flying experience, since it would force you to think before you do something, "Do i want to pull high Gs from the start to get a advantage?" "Do i want to play the long game and try to fatigue my opponent?" etc etc.

 

Feel free to join in and brainstorm with me here, also, i am interested to hear your opinion on why, or why not this would be a good/bad idea. 

 

 

 

[evanf117]

but you gotta have it so the more G you have pulled the more stamina you have to a certain point

[MeThePunisher]

It would be awesome to have it really accurate, but as of now a lot of people still complain about missiles not being accurate and radars not being finished. It isnt really priority ATM id say and it would be only good if it was as a Option like realistic TDC slew or so for servers so noob friendly side of the game would remain.

[Revi]

1 minute ago, evanf117 said:

but you gotta have it so the more G you have pulled the more stamina you have to a certain point

Good point! I agree, the higher the Gs, the faster the "bar" drains. 
However, what the most efficient values would be, i can not say, i am sure some smarter people then me could fill that in hahah!
That is why i said: 
"the amount of time needed, or values can all be discussed in here. "

[Mad_Shell]

I think it's an excellent idea. I know Ate (former Rafale pilot) said that the G effects on the pilot are quite unrealistic currently. In his tournaments he even had to enforce a rule limiting the high G turns on the deck, because you could just pull 7 Gs indefinitely, which is in no way realistic.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mad_Shell

[Revi]

3 minutes ago, MeThePunisher said:

It would be awesome to have it really accurate, but as of now a lot of people still complain about missiles not being accurate and radars not being finished. It isnt really priority ATM id say and it would be only good if it was as a Option like realistic TDC slew or so for servers so noob friendly side of the game would remain.

I agree with you as well, having this as a option that can be turned on for server owners, would keep everyone happy.

[evanf117]

2 minutes ago, Revi said:

Good point! I agree, the higher the Gs, the faster the "bar" drains. 
However, what the most efficient values would be, i can not say, i am sure some smarter people then me could fill that in hahah!
That is why i said: 
"the amount of time needed, or values can all be discussed in here. "

no i dont mean the more you pull the faster the bar drains i mean the more 1.1+ or 0.9- G you have pulled over time flying the more you build up a tolerance and the lower the bar drains, like irl

Edited August 27, 2021 by evanf117

[MAXsenna]

As long as it's optional.
SP only for me.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Revi]

1 minute ago, evanf117 said:

no i dont mean the more you pull the faster the bar drains i mean the more 1.1+ or 0.9- G you have pulled over time flying the more you build up a tolerance and the lower the bar drains, like irl

 

Ah i see!
So you are speaking about, i believe it is called "G warmup?"

If that is the case, that could potentially also be implemented, however i feel like it would complicate things, without adding much, but correct me if i am wrong. 

[evanf117]

4 minutes ago, Revi said:

Ah i see!
So you are speaking about, i believe it is called "G warmup?"

If that is the case, that could potentially also be implemented, however i feel like it would complicate things, without adding much, but correct me if i am wrong. 

i think the term G warm up is referring to pulling a little bit of g then alot so the alot has less of an effect where as i mean if you pull alot of g over a long period of time on an off you build up a natural resistance for it, this in my mind would add a reason to practise BFM more as doing so would build up a tolerance and it could be a thing you level up in your log book but it also effects multi player or not, so it could be optional for servers.

[Revi]

1 minute ago, evanf117 said:

i think the term G warm up is referring to pulling a little bit of g then alot so the alot has less of an effect where as i mean if you pull alot of g over a long period of time on an off you build up a natural resistance for it, this in my mind would add a reason to practise BFM more as doing so would build up a tolerance and it could be a thing you level up in your log book but it also effects multi player or not, so it could be optional for servers.

Ah wow! You want to bring it up a step haha!

This almost sounds like a RPG kind of mechanic, where you level up your character over time, even though i do like it, i feel like that is something for a different topic.

Also, this again would complicate things a lot in terms of development and the "how do we implement this" kind of conversations.

 

But i do like it though! 
 

[Lace]

I think the G tolerance and warmup idea wouldn't be too hard to implement.  It would reward players taking the time to do things properly (re warmup), and prevent endless 9G turning engagements. 

 

[Furiz]

48 minutes ago, evanf117 said:

i think the term G warm up is referring to pulling a little bit of g then alot so the alot has less of an effect where as i mean if you pull alot of g over a long period of time on an off you build up a natural resistance for it, this in my mind would add a reason to practise BFM more as doing so would build up a tolerance and it could be a thing you level up in your log book but it also effects multi player or not, so it could be optional for servers.

 

That would be a terrible idea, to have some sort of lvl system for G tolerance, that is just the thing that will drive people off, cause it is just a time factor and who was more time would have more G tolerance thus making BFM unfair.

[Revi]

4 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

That would be a terrible idea, to have some sort of lvl system for G tolerance, that is just the thing that will drive people off, cause it is just a time factor and who was more time would have more G tolerance thus making BFM unfair.

I agree that in this context "A multiplayer setting" it would be a bad idea, i tried to bring it in a bit of a more PC way hahah! But i do like your directness.

When speaking about a MP setting, a lvl system like that would indeed drive people off, since the result will be that those who are already experienced and skilled will now even have a mechanic that would give them more advantage, while new people that are less skilled/experienced, will now have to deal with being out turned by higher level people who have a higher G tolerance.

 

Indeed

[Killshot0597]

I'd say having a level up system for G-tolerance is probably going a little bit too far. As it is now, blackout seems to happen at a certain amount of Gs. Probably an average that ED has decided on. That being said, the G Endurance of a pilot should also be on an average basis. It'd be a lot simpler to implement granted we don't even have a working Logbook for MP yet.

[Furiz]

6 minutes ago, Revi said:

I agree that in this context "A multiplayer setting" it would be a bad idea, i tried to bring it in a bit of a more PC way hahah! But i do like your directness.

When speaking about a MP setting, a lvl system like that would indeed drive people off, since the result will be that those who are already experienced and skilled will now even have a mechanic that would give them more advantage, while new people that are less skilled/experienced, will now have to deal with being out turned by higher level people who have a higher G tolerance.

 

Indeed

 

Exactly that, to add to that, you would have to grind your way up that G tolerance lvl which would make you feel like you are at work rather than enjoying a sim. That happened to some very very popular game titles, they lost lots of people due to that grind issue.

Imagine if ED decided to add lvls to unlock certain weapons, HMD, TGP etc... that would drive me away for sure. So any kind of lvling in DCS in my opinion wouldn't do any good.

 

As for that warmup idea, maybe if it can be implemented well yea why not.

 

 

[Lace]

3 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

Exactly that, to add to that, you would have to grind your way up that G tolerance lvl which would make you feel like you are at work rather than enjoying a sim. That happened to some very very popular game titles, they lost lots of people due to that grind issue.

Imagine if ED decided to add lvls to unlock certain weapons, HMD, TGP etc... that would drive me away for sure. So any kind of lvling in DCS in my opinion wouldn't do any good.

 

As for that warmup idea, maybe if it can be implemented well yea why not.

 

 

 

The levelling-up already exists in DCS, it's called learning the aircraft systems.  You put in the hours one way or another.

[Furiz]

Just now, Lace said:

 

The levelling-up already exists in DCS, it's called learning the aircraft systems.  You put in the hours one way or another.

 

[Lace]

Just now, Furiz said:

 

 

Not sure what that means. 

 

My point is that DCS is not the sort of game someone just steps into and clicks with. If you are new to the genre it can take hundreds of hours to learn flying skills, tactics, weapons employment, threat systems capabilities, etc.  It's different to the button mashing or lap-after-lap grind in some games, but my point is a good DCS player is good because they invested time.  Lots of time.

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Exactly that, to add to that, you would have to grind your way up that G tolerance lvl which would make you feel like you are at work rather than enjoying a sim. That happened to some very very popular game titles, they lost lots of people due to that grind issue.

Imagine if ED decided to add lvls to unlock certain weapons, HMD, TGP etc... that would drive me away for sure. So any kind of lvling in DCS in my opinion wouldn't do any good.

 

As for that warmup idea, maybe if it can be implemented well yea why not.

Pretty much this, but for a very different reason.

 

Adding RPG elements to DCS would rely on the logbook, and the logbook is notoriously unreliable and buggy and prone to just breaking down (in a positive or negative direction) at the drop of a hat. It's also, almost by necessity, an openly available user file that can be edited pretty trivially. So you'd end up with a horrible grind system that would be trivial to just edit your way past — two opposing factors that would each make it quite pointless to even bother developing to begin with.

 

If it were just a warm-up system, then it could be a very interesting and neat idea, but it would also be an absolute nightmare to get it right. I can already see the endless threads on “it happens too easily/too late, and here's the data to pro[THEAD LOCKED AND DELETED FOR POSTING CLASSIFIED DATA]”  

[cfrag]

38 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

That would be a terrible idea, to have some sort of lvl system for G tolerance, that is just the thing that will drive people off, cause it is just a time factor and who was more time would have more G tolerance thus making BFM unfair.

 

This.

 

Plus some other questions: those AI pilots - do they suffer from the same limits? If they can continuopusly pull 7g while you black out after a few seconds, that would give them another (beside the simple flight model that allows them to turn on a dime) advantage.

 

I think ED's current implementation is a fine approximation of a very complex physiological phenomenon. Unless we also go into body size, weight, what the pilot had for lunch, how much sleep they got over the last few days (which also factor into g tolerance and general fitness for flying), IMHO we should keep it where it is without potentially turning DCS into a level-grinding RPG.

 

[Revi]

12 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 

This.

 

Plus some other questions: those AI pilots - do they suffer from the same limits? If they can continuopusly pull 7g while you black out after a few seconds, that would give them another (beside the simple flight model that allows them to turn on a dime) advantage.

 

I think ED's current implementation is a fine approximation of a very complex physiological phenomenon. Unless we also go into body size, weight, what the pilot had for lunch, how much sleep they got over the last few days (which also factor into g tolerance and general fitness for flying), IMHO we should keep it where it is without potentially turning DCS into a level-grinding RPG.

 

The original idea has nothing to do with grinding levels, that has been brought up by Evan in a later comment.

 

My idea was to simply supplement to what we already have, it does not have to be a drastic change but can be done pretty subtle. 

 

It simply prevents us from enduring sustained Gs for eternity, the values can be discussed, but again, i personally was not hinting towards a drastic change in where you would pass out within a few seconds, but simply finetune the current system with the addition of a "stamina" system. 

Good point about the AI though, the AI is being tweaked anyways if i recall correct, these changes could be applied to them as well. (well i say that, but i am no expert on AI i am not sure if it would be easy to replicate this behaviour)

Edited August 27, 2021 by Revi

[Furiz]

21 minutes ago, Lace said:

 

Not sure what that means. 

 

My point is that DCS is not the sort of game someone just steps into and clicks with. If you are new to the genre it can take hundreds of hours to learn flying skills, tactics, weapons employment, threat systems capabilities, etc.  It's different to the button mashing or lap-after-lap grind in some games, but my point is a good DCS player is good because they invested time.  Lots of time.

 

It means you missed the point and I can't help there:P sorry

[shagrat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Revi:

Hey guys!
I just had a very interesting conversation with a couple of people on the DCS discord about implementing a system that would simulate the pilot fatigue resulted from pulling sustained Gs. 

To summarise this, a very global and broad idea:

-Have a invisible "stamina" bar, which drains when pulling Gs, from lets say 3G up or more, and refills when not pulling Gs, the amount of time needed, or values can all be discussed in here. 
The lower the "stamina" bar, the faster you black out when pulling high Gs, besides that, some effects of lets say blurriness could also be implemented, the higher the "stamina" bar, the longer is takes to black out. 

 

I personally feel like such a system would greatly improve BFM and well, the whole flying experience, since it would force you to think before you do something, "Do i want to pull high Gs from the start to get a advantage?" "Do i want to play the long game and try to fatigue my opponent?" etc etc.

 

Feel free to join in and brainstorm with me here, also, i am interested to hear your opinion on why, or why not this would be a good/bad idea. 

 

 

 

As long as it is an option that can be deactivated by mission designers or for single player campaigns, ok.

Though I think we still have enough disadvantages compared to a real pilot. No peripheral vision, no feeling of orientation in the cockpit (VR is an advantage here), no way to operate switches and stuff without looking at them, not able to distinguish switches  by feel, no feeling of G-forces building up. Especially the last one is interesting... so how do I judge if I currently pull 6G or 8G continuously other than G-loc happening? Currently you judge by time and keep it at the point, where the tunnel vision holds steady. Now with a dynamic time (invisible health bar) what indicates I am close to G-loc? I can't feel how much I am exhausted, the visual reference could pass the threshold at any time and judging time left, by experience doesn't work.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by shagrat

[Exorcet]

G Warm up already in DCS I believe. More realistic stamina makes sense, but any kind of leveling system is an ultra hard no from me in a simulation (as long as I can turn it off that is fine). It's out of scope and only detracts the from the sim.