DCS : Vietnam

[Silver_Dragon]

1 minute ago, Rick50 said:

As for AI, I do remember they were talking about upgrading AI units some more, some in use today date back to the original "Su-27 Flanker" simulation of the mid-1990's... or maybe it was from the first Lock On from around 2002 or so.  But they did talk about how it was a matter of priorities and finding employee time to make those nicer newer models, and that it would take quite some time to upgrade all the older AI units.

 

AI improvemens has on 2021 and beyond Roadmap post

Quote

 

Enhanced AI

Behaviour

hero10.png

 

Currently, much of our AI engineering effort is focused on the AI aircraft behaviour, in harmony with the new damage modelling and in line with logical and understandable rules and practices. Additionally, the new ATC and radio communications will demand a significant amount of AI engineering. This work is ongoing and will probably never really be finished but we do hope to deliver substantial enhancements during the latter half of 2021.

 

 

1 minute ago, Rick50 said:

I personally wonder if it might be good to add upgraded AI models made by DCS user artists... but it takes some knowledge to make AI models that won't choke people's systems... carefully choosing the model LOD's. To me, one of the most glaring AI units, for the 1960's and 70's would be the B-52, because the DCS AI B-52 looks like an H model, while in those days the common one was the tall shark tail D's, some painted with black undersides, some with camoflage up sides, giant wing tanks, no chin sensors. Some were painted white underneath with bare metal for the nuclear SAC role, which means upgraded textures for PBR. Maybe, just maybe, such a model could be "donated" to ED, so that it's incorporated into the sim default units for all to share in missions... rather than "why don't my B-52's show up?" "did you download the mod?" "oh wait, it's not working on mine either" "I can't download the mod, where can I get it?". 

The same situation with AI units:

Quote

 

AI Units

New and Updated assets

Because DCS World is built on a project spanning almost two decades, some units now show their age and will be updated throughout the year. It is also important that we add new units to better fill the battlefields. Here are some of the items that we intend to create or update in 2021:

Large Aircraft: B-52H, Tu-95MS, Tu-142, B-1B, IL-38, and Tu-160

Carrier Aircraft: S-3B and SH-60B

Ground Units: M1A2, AMX-56 Leclerc, Wespe Sd.Kfz.124, KS-19 100mm ADA, Son-4 “Flap Wheel” radar, C1 Ariete, Pantsir SA-22 “Greyhound”, and S-300/SA-10 “Grumble”.

 

from:

;

[Rick50]

 

Thank you Dragon, that's what I was going off memory!

 

 

Here's a typical VN era B-52D configuration:

 

 

 

So these are the earlier "D" variant, compared to the H in the DCS AI. These older units feature a very tall tail, which got clipped shorter in later variants. They also don't have the chin or nose sensors, so the side profile at the front is much more graceful looking. Another feature unique to the era, was the "Big Belly conversion", which enabled more of the smaller conventional bombs, 500lb and 750lb bombs to be carried in large numbers for "carpet bombing" techniques. This added large bomb racks on the two wing pylons, and probably other internal bomb bay modifications too.

 

They also seemed to use a much larger exterior fuel tanks than on newer units... the ones during VN war seemed to almost be the size of an F-104 Starfighter!  I'm guessing that was as a result of the need to do round-trips from Guam Andersen AFB to Hanoi and back, without any tanker support needed.  It's possible that those larger tanks were replaced possibly due to reduced need, more tanker support, wanting to reduce wing loading and stress over time to save the airframes?

 

I beleive in those days you had a tail gunner actually sitting in the tail, in the window canopy. This was before the Vulcan 6 barrelled units, I think these used four separate guns... the text there says .50cals but I thought they were 20mm, guess my memory isn't so hot anymore!

 

As you can see, even from quite a distance, they have a fairly obvious and different look to these "D's" than the more modern "H" models, which is one reason I'd love to see these older units in-game!

Edited August 26, 2021 by Rick50

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, YSIAD_RIP said:

Would a temporary solution be a Vietnam Community Mod of Caucasus with Jungle/Trees and Buildings that are a little more appropriate?

 

We need a community 1960s asset or ff thud or Phantom

[Rick50]

 

And the Riverine boats and ship:

 

[Silver_Dragon]

By my data (none include all B-52 versions):

B-52B SAC early version

 

Quote

B-52B Stratofortress Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 103
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: 1st Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APS-23 radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 400 420 --
Med: 450 540 --
High: 450 520 --
Ceiling: 14420 m Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 5610 nmi Int Fuel: 115750 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 19505 kg
Def Guns: Tail stinger (see remarks)
• 27 M117 bombs
• 1 Mk6 or 2 Mk15 or 2 Mk21 or 2 Mk36 or 2 Mk39 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28 nuclear bombs
• Recon pod (ELINT or cameras or SLAR) - RB-52B only

Remarks: In Svc: Jun 55 - 66
50 produced. 27 are RB-52B with recon pod in bomb bay vice internal weapons, can be fitted or removed in 4 hours. All have gun fire control reliability problems. Fitted with K-3A bombing system from B-36, can bomb from Medium altitude only. Internal fuel and Cruise range include two 1000 USG drop tanks or 40820 USG total.
• 18 RB-52B have 2 M24A-1 20mm MD-5 (0.5).
• 7 B-52B and 9 RB-52B have 4 M3 .50 cal./A-3A FC (0.9).
• 16 B-52B have two M24A-1 20mm MD-5 (0.5).
• May 1956: Live drop of Mk15 bomb.
• Aug 56: Fitted to bomb from all altitudes (MA-6A).
• Early 60s: Reconnaissance role removed.

 

Vietnam B-52D Linebacker I and II
 

Quote

B-52C/D Stratofortress Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 103
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: 1st Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APS-23 radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 400 430 --
Med: 450 550 --
High: 450 490 --

Ceiling: 14440 m Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 6170 nmi Int Fuel: 129000 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 19505 kg
Def Guns: 4 M3 .50 cal., A-3A/MD-9 FC (0.9)
• 27 M117 or 27 Mk82 bombs internal
• 66 M117 bombs (42 internal, 24 external) - Big Belly
• 108 Mk82 bombs (84 internal, 24 external) - Big Belly
• 60 Mk36 or 30 Mk40 or 30 Mk52 or 20 Mk41 DST or 20 Mk55 or 20 Mk56 or 18 Mk60 sea mines (B-52D)
• 1 Mk6 or 2 Mk15 or 2 Mk21 or 2 Mk36 or 2 Mk39 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28/B57/B61 nuclear bombs
• 1 B41 nuclear bomb
• 4 B28/B61 nuclear bombs, 4 ADM-20A Quail (B-52D 1961- 78)
• 2 AGM-28 Hound Dog, 4 ADM-20A Quail (B-52D 1961 - 78)
• 2 B53 nuclear bombs (1962)
• 3 GBU-15, D/L pod (B-52D 1977 on)

Remarks: In Svc: Jun 56 - 71/83
Internal fuel includes two 3000 USG drop tanks or 41700 USG total.
• B-52C, 35 built, has option of recon pack as RB-52B. Unreliable gun FC. Last B-52C has MD-9. Retired 1971.
• B-52D, 170 built with MD-9 FC. Cannot carry recon pack in bomb bay. Retired Oct 83.
• 11/59 - 9/63: Strengthened for low level flights. Some B-52D fitted with Hound Dog and Quail.
• 1964: Fitted with APS-104 replacing APS-23 radar.
• 12/65 - 67: Big Belly mod for B-52D with high density bomb-clips. Payload increased to 27200 kg.
• 1967 - 69: Rivet Rambler/Phase V ECM fit, ECM to 2nd Gen J&D, 1st Gen ES, 1st Gen RWR.
• 1969 - 71: 80 B-52D fitted to carry Mk36 DST and M117D/Mk59 DST naval mines, units based at Andersen and Pease. Other types fitted in 1979.
• 1977: Some B-52D fitted with GBU-15.

 

B-52E/F versions / early B-52 bombers use on Vietnami

 

Quote

 

B-52E/F Stratofortress Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 103
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: 1st Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APS-64 radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 400 430 --
Med: 450 550 --
High: 450 490 --
Ceiling: 13985/14235 m Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 5450/5705 nmi Int Fuel: 127295 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 19505 kg
Def Guns: 4 M3 .50 cal., A-3A/MD-9 FC (0.9)
• 27 M117 or 27 Mk82 bombs internal
• 27 M117 bombs internal plus 24 M117 external (South Bay, Sun Bath)

• 4 B28 or 4 B61 nuclear bombs, 4 ADM-20A Quail
• 2 AGM-28 Hound Dog, 4 ADM-20A Quail
• 2 Mk15 or 2 B28 or 2 B36 or 2 B39 or 2 B41 or 2 B53 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28 or 4 B57 or 4 B61 nuclear bomb

Remarks: In Svc: 1958 - 71/78
Ceiling and range figures are for B-52E/F. Some fitted with Hound Dog.
• B-52E was first version designed for low level flight capability. 100 produced. Retired between 1970 and 1971.
• B-52F has J57-43W engines and improved alternators. 89 produced. Retired between 1973 and 1978.
• 1961: Fitted with ASQ-38 avionics, includes APS-104 radar, includes TA mode.
• 1964: South Bay adds external bomb pylons to 24 B-52F.
• 1965: Sun Bath mod fitted to 46 B-52F updates as South Bay.
• 6/65 - 3/66: Arc Light missions over South Vietnam and Laos. Replaced by Big Belly B-52D.

 

 

Vietnam B-52G Linebacker I and II

Quote

B-52G Stratofortress Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 104
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: 1st Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APS-64 radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 400 470 --
Med: 460 550 --
High: 460 520 --

Ceiling: 14326 m Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 6515 nmi Int Fuel: 147135 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 19505 kg
Def Guns: aft 4 M3 .50 cal., ASG-15 FC radar (0.9)
• 27 M117/Mk82 bombs internally
• 2 Mk15/B36/B39/B41/B53 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28/B57/B61 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28/B61 nuclear bombs, 4 ADM-20A Quail
• 2 AGM-28 Hound Dog, 4 ADM-20A Quail
• 20 AGM-69A SRAM (8 internal, 12 external)
• 12 external SRAM, 4 B28 or 4 B61 nuclear bombs

• Hound Dog hardpoints with I-Beam, with either
• 51 M117 or Mk82 (27 internal, 24 external)
• 51 CBU-58 or CBU-71 (27 internal, 24 external)
• 30 CBU-87 or CBU-89 (6 internal, 24 external)
• 51 Mk59 DST or 51 Mk36 DST mines

• Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) hardpoints, with either:
• 12 AGM-86B (1982 on)
• 12 AGM-86C (Jan 1988)

• Heavy Stores Adapter Beam (HSAB) hardpoints, with either:
• 45 M117 or 43 Mk82 (27 internal, 18 external)
• 18 Mk84 (8 internal, 10 external)
• 45 CBU-58 or CBU-71 (27 internal, 18 external)
• 8 AGM-84 Harpoon (1984)
• 3 AGM-142, ASW-55 guidance pod (1991)
• 45 Mk59 DST/Mk36 DST or 30 Mk52 or 20 Mk55/Mk56 or 18 Mk60 mines

Remarks: In Svc: 1959 - 94
193 B-52G produced with increased fuel in wing. 55th B-52G and on fitted for Hound Dog. Internal fuel includes 700 USG external tanks (cannot be jettisoned), included in total range and fuel figures. Not fitted with optical bombsight, must use B/N radar.
• 1961: Fitted with ASB-9A system with APS-104 TA radar.
• 1962: All earlier B-52G fitted with Hound Dog.
• 1967 - 69: Some fitted with Rivet Rambler/Phase V ECM, ECM to 2nd Gen J&D, 1st Gen ES), 1st Gen RWR.
• 1972 - 76: Fitted with ASQ-151 EO Viewing System (EVS): 1st Gen FLIR, LLTV (allows TF as per rules) and Rivet Ace/Phase VI ECM - 2nd Gen J&D, 2nd Gen ES, 1st gen RWR, ALQ-153 tail warning radar.
• 1972: Used in combat over North Vietnam, 50% used had Rivet Rambler ECM, remainder had original 1st Gen J&D. - some carried ALQ-119 ECM pod.
• Early 80s: External SRAM no longer carried.
• 1980 - 86: Fitted with ASQ-176 bombing system vice analog ASQ-38 (Computing Bombsight).
• Dec 82: 98 fitted for 12 external ALCM, cannot use HSAB pylon. 69 others used for conventional missions with HSAB pylons. Estimated mine capability from this date.
• Dec 84 - Jun 85: 30 fitted to carry AGM-84 Harpoon with 69th BMS at Loring AFB and 43th Wing at Guam AFB.
• 1985 - 88: Retired from nuclear bombing role.
• 1987 - 90: Fitted with APQ-166 vice APS-104 radar with SAR mode.
• Mid-80s: 8 fitted with AGM-142 capability.
• 1986 - 88: ALQ-172 jammer vice ALQ-171 (3rd Gen J&D countermeasures).
• Oct 91: Guns no longer used, removed by 1994.
• Dec 92: Nuclear role removed - 83 remain of which 42 were conventional bomber, 41 ALCM.

 

Actual DCS World B-52H. Has two variants, Initial and post 93 update (See bellow).

Quote

B-52H Stratofortress Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 105
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: 1st Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APS-81 B/N radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 400 470 --
Med: 460 550 --
High: 460 520 --
Ceiling: 14540 m Engine Type: TF
Cruise Range: 8440 nmi Int Fuel: 147135 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 22680 kg
Def Guns: M61A1 Vulcan 20mm, ASG-21 FC (1.9)
• 27 M117 or Mk82 bombs internally
• 2 Mk15/B36/B39/B41/B53 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28/B57/B61/B83 nuclear bombs
• 4 B28 nuclear bombs, 4 ADM-20A Quail (1960 - 78)
• 4 ADM-20 Quail internally, 2 AGM-28 Hound Dog or 12 AGM-69A SRAM externally
• 20 AGM-69A SRAM (8 internal, 12 external)

• Air Launched Cruise Missile hp (ALCM, 1982), and either:
• 12 AGM-86B, 8 AGM-69A
• 12 AGM-86C (Jan 88)
• 12 AGM-86D (?)
• 12 external AGM-129A (1991)

• Hound Dog hardpoints with I-Beam (SPF), with either:
• 51 M117 or 51 M117R
• 51 Mk36 DST or Mk59 DST mines

• Common Strategic Rotary Launcher (CSRL, 1988), and either:
• 4 B28 or 8 B61 or 8 B83 nuclear bombs
• 20 AGM-86B/C/D (8 internal, 12 external)
• 8 internal AGM-86B, 12 external AGM-129A (1991)

Remarks: In Svc: Mar 61
102 built with TF33 TF engines, as replacement for canceled B-70.
Fitted with UW2 for ALE-25 chaff pods, each with 20 ADR-25 2.5” chaff rockets. Did not employ conventional weapons until the 1990s. Not fitted with optical bombsight, must use B/N radar.
• 1966 - 71: Two carried D-21 recon drone vice Hound Dog (Senior Bowl).
• 1972 - 76: Fitted with EVS (see B-52G).
• 1972 - 76: Rivet Ace ECM to 2nd Gen J&D, 2nd Gen ES, 1st Gen RWR, ALQ-153 tail warning radar.
• 1980 - 85: Two wings at Minot AFB operate as part of Strategic Projection Force (SPF) in conventional role. Role then passed to B-52G with HSAB.
• 1981 - 86: Fitted with ASQ-176 vice ASQ-38 (Computing Bombsight).
• 1982 - 90: 96 fitted with external ALCM, payload raised to 28500 kg.
• 1987 - 90: Fitted with APQ-166 vice APS-81 radar with SAR mode.
• 1988: 82 fitted with rotary launcher (CSRL), cannot carry mixed loads. 3rd Gen J&D countermeasures.
• Oct 91: Guns no longer used. Removed by 1994.

 

B-52H (1993 update)

Quote

B-52H Stratofortress (1993) Bomber
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5, Damage Value: 105
Size/Signature: Large/Large, Bombsight: Computing
Counterm: 3rd Gen J&D, Inflight Refuel: B
Sensors: APQ-166, 1st Gen IRST/FLIR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 310 560 --
Med: 453 547 --
High: 442 526 --
Ceiling: 14500 m Engine Type: TF
Cruise Range: 7175 nmi Int Fuel: 147135 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 22680 kg
• Can carry targeting pods in all loadouts: Litening II (Feb 03) or Litening AT (Aug 04) or AAQ-33 Sniper (Mid 2010).
• 2 B53-1 nuclear bombs (all)
• 28 CBU-87 or 26 CBU-89 bombs (all)
• 12 Mk52 or 8 Mk41 DST or 8 Mk55 or 8 Mk56 or 8 Mk60 or 51 Mk62 or 8 Mk64 or 8 Mk65 mines (all)
• 1 GBU-57 MOP (late 2010?)

• Hound Dog hardpoints with I-Beam, with either
• 51 M117 or Mk82 (27 internal, 24 external)
• 51 CBU-58 or CBU-71 (27 internal, 24 external)
• 30 CBU-87 or CBU-89 (6 internal, 24 external)
• 51 Mk36/59/62 mines (27 internal, 24 external)

• Heavy Stores Adapter Beam (HSAB) hardpoints, with either:
• 45 M117 or 43 Mk82 (27 internal, 18 external)
• 18 Mk84 (8 internal, 10 external)
• 18 Mk41 DST or 30 Mk52 or 20 Mk55 or 16 Mk56 or 18 Mk60 or 18 Mk63 or 18 Mk64 or 18 Mk65 mines
• 45 CBU-58 or CBU-71 (27 internal, 18 external) -retired by 2013
• 12 GBU-10 or GBU-12 Paveway II external, 27 Mk82 internal
• 8 AGM-84 Harpoon IC (Sep 94 - 2004)
• 3 AGM-142, ASW-55 guidance pod (May 94 - 2005)
• 12 AGM-158A JASSM (Oct 03)
• 12 GBU-31 external, 27 Mk82 internal (Dec 00)
• 16 CBU-103/104/105 WCMD external, 27 Mk82 internal (late 01)
• 12 GBU-38 external, 27 Mk82 internal (by 2007)
• 12 GBU-54 external, 27 Mk82 internal (2011?)
• 12 ADM-160 MALD (Jul 12)
• 12 AGM-158B JASSM (2018?)

• Air Launched Cruise Missile hp (ALCM, 1982), and either:
• 12 AGM-86B/C/D (1982)
• 12 AGM-86C (Jan 88) or AGM-86C Block IA (Feb 01)
• 12 AGM-86D (2001)
• 12 external AGM-129A (retired 2008)

• Common Strategic Rotary Launcher (CSRL, 1988), and either:
• 8 B61 nuclear bombs
• 8 B83 nuclear bombs (until 1997)
• 8 B61-11 nuclear bombs (1997)
• 20 AGM-86B/C/D (8 internal, 12 external)
• 8 internal AGM-86B, 12 external AGM-129A

• Conventional Rotary Launcher (CRL, May 2016), and either:
• 20 GBU-31 JDAM (8 internal, 12 external)
• 24 GBU-38 or GBU-54 (12 internal, 12 external)
• 20 AGM-158A/B (8 internal, 12 external) - Jul 19
• 20 ADM-160 MALD or MALD-J (8 internal, 12 external) - Jul 19

Remarks: In Svc: 1993 (1961)
Estimated all active squadrons use CEM, reserve units conventional weapons only. Internal fuel includes two 1400 USG external tanks (cannot be jettisoned). Not fitted with optical bombsight, must use B/N radar.
• Jun 93: Conventional role. Stats above reflect this role - 80 have CSRL mods and 14 ALCM only.
• May 94: Four fitted for AGM-84 Harpoon (96th BS, Barksdale) - operational Sep 94, first live firing Jul 96; four fitted for AGM-142A (20th BS).
• Aug 94-00: 48 CSRL aircraft undergo CEM upgrade with provision for guided and heavier weapons using HSAB pylons (can still carry CSRL loadouts). ~19 CEM fitted for Harpoon and 12 for AGM-142. Can carry 3 vice 1 AGM-142. Estimated Hound Dog hardpoints with I-Beam retired at this time.
• 1997: All fitted with provision for Harpoon msls.
• Feb 03: 12 fitted for Litening targeting pods on unused wing hp (add to any loadout above), although only six pods available.
• 2004: Laser-guided bombs trialled against ship targets.
• 2010: No longer carry nuclear bombs. Capability removed 2016.
• 2013: No longer conduct TA flights.
• 2017: 31 of 75 converted to conventional only roles (New START).
• Mid 2021: Fitted with Link 16 data link.
• Planned to be fitted with AGM-183 missile (2025), new engines, 6th generation radar to replace APQ-166 (2026).

 

PD: Added all B-52 versions as reference.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[Stratos]

ED would benefit a lot from more MOD open mind, including easier to add units and terrains. Imagine you don't have the Huey, but someone released a map of Vietnam, will you purchase the Huey then? I'm sure you will.

[Silver_Dragon]

 

4 minutes ago, Stratos said:

ED would benefit a lot from more MOD open mind, including easier to add units and terrains. Imagine you don't have the Huey, but someone released a map of Vietnam, will you purchase the Huey then? I'm sure you will.

 

MODs can build with actual EDM tools.

 

About free SDK and/or TDK has none into the ED plans (require signed as 3rd party). AI units need reach to ED quality standar and level to add them into DCS core and maintain them after release.  Some guiadance can get here:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/medialibrary/d9e/grkacdl86onf14ah185aluy6udaktszb/3D_Unit_Modelling.pdf

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Rick50 said:

 

And the Riverine boats and ship:

 

Brown water operations in the Caucasus would be awesome. Until we have a Vietnam map we can at least do community assets

[Stratos]

11 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

 

 

MODs can build with actual EDM tools.

 

About free SDK and/or TDK has none into the ED plans (require signed as 3rd party). AI units need reach to ED quality standar and level to add them into DCS core and maintain them after release.  Some guiadance can get here:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/medialibrary/d9e/grkacdl86onf14ah185aluy6udaktszb/3D_Unit_Modelling.pdf

AFAIK, current tools do not allow things like guided missiles, as an example, the lack of the AGM.12 Bullpup on the A-4 or the Hellfire on the A-29 Super Tucano.

About quality of AI units I agree, they need to reach at least the quality level of the ED MiG-23, F-4 Phantom or Su-22, right?

 

Concerning Vietnam terrain mods, the ones released in the past do not work properly in 2.7, new mods would be needed.

 

There are certain annoying things, like ED not allowing modders to fix long know problems or lack of features, like this very cool mod that eliminated the hardpoints on the Huey while using the gunners. ED eliminated the chance of use it when they hid the certain lua files. BTW this mod would fit 100% with the WIP campaign by Reflected.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Stratos

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

AFAIK, current tools do not allow things like guided missiles, as an example, the lack of the AGM.12 Bullpup on the A-4 or the Hellfire on the A-29 Super Tucano.

 

The current tools (lua editor) can add new weapons. Some code is not available as it is hard coded.

 

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

About quality of AI units I agree, they need to reach at least the quality level of the ED MiG-23, F-4 Phantom or Su-22, right?

 

Good Intent to compare a old LOMAC/FC with the last 3D models. No, that is not the actual "quality standard". Meanwhile has a great quantity to update and rebuild, ED has on steady work to put new and redone all of them to same quality. On the last years has some hundred 3D models updated by the great work of the 3D model teams, include actually build new infantry with the Supercarrier carrier crew tecnology. On 2021 roadmap has some complex IAs 3D model to add and redone on 2021-22... On 2021, has near a hundred redone / bugfixed.
 

Quote

 

AI Units

New and Updated assets

Because DCS World is built on a project spanning almost two decades, some units now show their age and will be updated throughout the year. It is also important that we add new units to better fill the battlefields. Here are some of the items that we intend to create or update in 2021:

Large Aircraft: B-52H, Tu-95MS, Tu-142, B-1B, IL-38, and Tu-160

Carrier Aircraft: S-3B and SH-60B

Ground Units: M1A2, AMX-56 Leclerc, Wespe Sd.Kfz.124, KS-19 100mm ADA, Son-4 “Flap Wheel” radar, C1 Ariete, Pantsir SA-22 “Greyhound”, and S-300/SA-10 “Grumble”.

 

 

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

Concerning Vietnam terrain mods, the ones released in the past do not work properly in 2.7, new mods would be needed.

 

The Mod builder need maintain and update your work or other build new, no ED. the core and map engines has on continuous change and update.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[Stratos]

50 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

 

The currenc tools (lua editor) can add new weapons. Meanwhile, has some code, no available by harcoded.

 

 

Good Intent to compare a old LOMAC/FC with the last 3D models. No, that is not the actual "quality standard". Meanwhile has a great quantity to update and rebuild, ED has on steady work to put new and redone all of them to same quality. On the last years has some hundred 3D models updated by the great work of the 3D model teams, include actually build new infantry with the Supercarrier carrier crew tecnology. On 2021 roadmap has some complex IAs 3D model to add and redone on 2021-22... On 2021, has near a hundred redone / bugfixed.
 

 

 

The Mod builder need maintain and update your work or other build new, no ED. the core and map engines has on continuous change and update.

 

 

 

Can you reformulate first answer? Cannot understand you.

 

Good intent? No, just the things the way they are.

 

Regarding mods, of course modder need to update their work. I'm asking for more tools and easier modability like other games allow, like ArmA3, or SF2. Is this going against ED? What about tha Huey mod? What was the problem with it?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Stratos

[Silver_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Regarding mods, of course modder need to update their work. I'm asking for more tools and easier modability like other games allow, like ArmA3, or SF2. Is this going against ED?

 

That is DCS World, no a clone. They put own rules.

 

14 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Good intent? Just the things the way they are.

 

That is only 3 old AI units of some hundreds. And has not representative of the actual quality of DCS.

[BIGNEWY]

@Stratos we are constantly working on new models and upgrading old ones, but it takes time, as @Silver_Dragon has mentioned we have already done a lot of work adding new units and improving old ones. 

 

Terrain SDK is only available for third parties, if there are any teams out there looking to add a terrain to DCS we are happy to talk with them. 

 

thanks

[Stratos]

I know about the new models ED is adding, and I know how long it can cost to get good models, that's why Iask about better MOD support, I'm sure it would add more value, new AI's, new ground units etc.

 

Why the lua files were locked so we lost the Huey mod?

 

Same for terrains, why only for third parties? why only for payware? Why not to open for modders as well? Is just a business decision?

 

Regarding Silver, he answers only what he wants, ask something he doesn't want to hear and he simply ignores the question.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Stratos

[Silver_Dragon]

2 hours ago, Stratos said:

Regarding Silver, he answers only what he wants, ask something he doesn't want to hear and he simply ignores the question.

 

 

 

I answerd your question on a previous post

 

Quote

The current tools (lua editor) can add new weapons. Some code is not available as it is hard coded.

I have Modder, building AI units (ships and weapons) and actually Mods work to DCS (of course I dont build planes with cockpit). Dont expected make copy paste about ED or 3rd party files, that can be "blocked" / encripted. Other funtionality has only available by the SDK.

About making changes on exiting modules, the same situation. Some encripted and others has not available to edit them. Lost Mods as Huey not working but has been changes on the hardcode (C++ files) / Luas / 3D models with disable them. The DCS core and engine has on continious update and bugfixing, as funtionalities request by the comunity, 3rd parties, develop or need change to raise steeps to improve them. That can affect to any Mod. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[Stratos]

19 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

 

 

I answerd your question on a previous post

 

I have Modder, building AI units (ships and weapons) and actually Mods work to DCS (of course I dont build planes with cockpit). Dont expected make copy paste about ED or 3rd party files, that can be "blocked" / encripted. Other funtionality has only available by the SDK.

About making changes on exiting modules, the same situation. Some encripted and others has not available to edit them. Lost Mods as Huey not working but has been changes on the hardcode (C++ files) / Luas / 3D models with disable them. The DCS core and engine has on continious update and bugfixing, as funtionalities request by the comunity, 3rd parties, develop or need change to raise steeps to improve them. That can affect to any Mod. 

 

Far from it Silver, far from it. I don't care what you have, but what all community has acces.

 

Locking the LUA files was a poor movement, the Huey should have been launched with the option not to carry the hardpoints while carring the gunners, several years after launch we're still stuck with them. Then a guy fix the problem and ED locks the ED and make the mod unusable, not very community friendly.

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

Silver_Dragon is a volunteer and likes to keep everyone up to date with news, he does not speak for ED so please dont treat him like he does, he is just passionate about DCS. 

 

We lock down some files to protect our IP and to prevent cheating in some cases, like it or not that is how it is. 

 

SDK access is important for terrain development for integration into DCS, but as you have probably seen parts are still possible by Modders. 

 

Appreciate you dont like the way it is, but its not going to change. 

 

thanks

[WRAITH]

21 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

@Stratos we are constantly working on new models and upgrading old ones, but it takes time, as @Silver_Dragon has mentioned we have already done a lot of work adding new units and improving old ones. 

 

Terrain SDK is only available for third parties, if there are any teams out there looking to add a terrain to DCS we are happy to talk with them. 

 

thanks

 

Hi Bignewy,

 

Absolutely agree ED has done allot

Absolutely agree it takes time

Absolutely agree its complicated programming / code issues

Absolutely agree that there are costs

Absolutely agree that there are technical legal challenges and restrictions

Absolutely agree that timing means patience with small dev teams

Absolutely agree with many comments you make BIGNEWY.....

 

But please could we simply see on the horizon after many years of request/threads/links/youtubes and discussions and whatnot the attempt to create a "REAL DCS WORLD"......... by at least ED building the code work for a global map framework even if its flat landscapes with mountainous views like PMC theaters with fictional military airbases / training grounds and then allow community development to create topography details that's more in favor than nothing for two decades.

 

PLEASE!

 

AN EXAMPLE -

 

https://youtu.be/GnyeYcf03Ek

 

[Dragon1-1]

TBH, I think that a Vietnam-era sim should be its own product. Different map tech would be needed to allow representing the whole AO from Udon to CCK (the latter of which is in Taiwan), ground units would have to act completely differently, and AI would have to be designed from ground-up to use period accurate tactics. OTOH, most "smart" functionality would not be present, although things like TGPs and MITL were already a thing in 'Nam, in very early form.

[BIGNEWY]

@WRAITH the team have already mentioned a global possibility in interviews, but it is very early days, its a massive task, so dont expect any news for a while.  

 

thanks

[WinterH]

On 8/26/2021 at 12:51 PM, Lurker said:

I completely disagree that we already don't have modules which could be used on the map. unless you really want to split hairs or suffer from OCD, the Mig21 BIS with weapon restrictions can fill in for earlier variants, and this goes for other modules both available and in development. 

And you're almost completely wrong. This isn't about slightly different aircraft, or a few more weapons that can be restricted out. Almost everything even immediately post Vietnam War is vastly more capable then their Vietnam versions in ways that change how they operate. Because that's how tech develops, you fix the deficiencies occured in the last war. But those deficiencies defined the realities of air war over Vietnam: complete lack or very crappy RWRs, often unreliable radars, very unreliable missiles, little to no guided ground attack weapons until fairly late, few aircraft with the ability to be accurate with unguided ground attack weapons, little to no emphasis on agility for the most part etc.

 

MiG-21Bis is a relatively less of far cry, but even it is not appropriate as it just has a lot better thrust, range, and radar than closest variant actually served in Vietnam, the MF. Besides, MF was late and few in numbers, most MiG-21s served in that war were PF, PFM, and even F-13s. Bis is an incredibly far cry from any of those.

 

I've already listed in my post what is correct, what is good enough as a fill-in, and what isn't. Though, I was too generous on the F-5E-3, as it really is superior to any F-5 served in war by some margin. Take that away, we have 1 blue helicopter that mostly fit with very little weapon restrictions, 1 blue attack plane (but it is a mod, making its inclusion on official campaigns for example, rather unlikely), and 1 red fighter in existing modules. So that's like 2 and a half existing modules, and 1 blue and 1 red fighter in upcoming ones. Razbam wanted to make a Bronco at some point, but it doesn't look like in active consideration anymore (I'd love it TBH). A-6 is almost certain to be vastly more capable than Vietnam versions, A-7 is very likely to be so too.

[Stratos]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Silver_Dragon is a volunteer and likes to keep everyone up to date with news, he does not speak for ED so please dont treat him like he does, he is just passionate about DCS. 

 

We lock down some files to protect our IP and to prevent cheating in some cases, like it or not that is how it is. 

 

SDK access is important for terrain development for integration into DCS, but as you have probably seen parts are still possible by Modders. 

 

Appreciate you dont like the way it is, but its not going to change. 

 

thanks

 

I'm not treating him like he's from ED, he should stop acting like he knows everything and answering questions directed to ED.

 

No, I don't like the way it is, again I think is poor management and shooting your own foot, ED has the right to act as he wishes, I have the right to disagree.

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

 

I'm not treating him like he's from ED, he should stop acting like he knows everything and answering questions directed to ED.

 

No, I don't like the way it is, again I think is poor management and shooting your own foot, ED has the right to act as he wishes, I have the right to disagree.

 

Well you have given your feedback now, I have listened. 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

TBH, I think that a Vietnam-era sim should be its own product. Different map tech would be needed to allow representing the whole AO from Udon to CCK (the latter of which is in Taiwan), ground units would have to act completely differently, and AI would have to be designed from ground-up to use period accurate tactics. OTOH, most "smart" functionality would not be present, although things like TGPs and MITL were already a thing in 'Nam, in very early form.

I don't see why the improved maps or AI can't or shouldn't be added to DCS. 

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

And you're almost completely wrong. This isn't about slightly different aircraft, or a few more weapons that can be restricted out. Almost everything even immediately post Vietnam War is vastly more capable then their Vietnam versions in ways that change how they operate. Because that's how tech develops, you fix the deficiencies occured in the last war. But those deficiencies defined the realities of air war over Vietnam: complete lack or very crappy RWRs, often unreliable radars, very unreliable missiles, little to no guided ground attack weapons until fairly late, few aircraft with the ability to be accurate with unguided ground attack weapons, little to no emphasis on agility for the most part etc.

 

MiG-21Bis is a relatively less of far cry, but even it is not appropriate as it just has a lot better thrust, range, and radar than closest variant actually served in Vietnam, the MF. Besides, MF was late and few in numbers, most MiG-21s served in that war were PF, PFM, and even F-13s. Bis is an incredibly far cry from any of those.

 

I've already listed in my post what is correct, what is good enough as a fill-in, and what isn't. Though, I was too generous on the F-5E-3, as it really is superior to any F-5 served in war by some margin. Take that away, we have 1 blue helicopter that mostly fit with very little weapon restrictions, 1 blue attack plane (but it is a mod, making its inclusion on official campaigns for example, rather unlikely), and 1 red fighter in existing modules. So that's like 2 and a half existing modules, and 1 blue and 1 red fighter in upcoming ones. Razbam wanted to make a Bronco at some point, but it doesn't look like in active consideration anymore (I'd love it TBH). A-6 is almost certain to be vastly more capable than Vietnam versions, A-7 is very likely to be so too.

The next question, is what would it take to get developers to do the period correct versions of the aircraft in question?