missing info Targeting Pod "Wanders off"

[Morat]

Has anyone else noticed this behaviour from the Lightning pod? Sometimes when turn into a target, the t-pod loses lock and wobbles off to one side as I roll back to wings level. It then stabilises on the wrong piece of real estate and I have to re-aquire the target before I can make it go boom.

Is this correct? It seemed to arrive with 2.7

Cheers,

Morat

[Faelwolf]

I don't know if it's a bug or works that way in R/L, someone like Snoopy could give us the scoop on that.  But, it did this before 2.7, though not as bad.  Basically IIRC it has to do with gimbal limits or terrain masking.  I am in the habit of throwing down a markpoint once I find targets, for quick re-acquisition. The JHMCS is a God-send for this now, too.

[MoppleTheWhale42]

In my experience, that's what happens, when the TGP is in area or point tracking mode, and you fly high-g maneuvers. I do not know whether this happens with the real TGP as well.

What I do to prevent this: If I have to fly aggressive maneuvers, or fly away from a tracked target, to which I want to return, I put the TGP into the INS mode. This way it preserves the location it is aiming at.

[King39]

It's infuriating. Happens all too often in gradual and moderate G-turns. I can't tell you how many rockets and (laser) bombs I've wasted by this nonsense. I can't believe that this would be indicative in real-world TGPs. The pilots I've worked with wouldn't stand for it. Bombs and rockets guided to civilian houses and buildings.

I've tried power cycling the TGP but still no joy.

[5ephir0th]

Maybe TGP realigning after a gimball limit? If it this to avoid it dont low your nose below your target.

If you are fliying to the target to launch a laser rocket or maverick if your velocity vector is above your target and you point it below the TGP rotates and realign to avoid achieve the gimbal limit, losing the target, if you, then, point you vector above the target it will rotate again

[King39]

28 minutes ago, 5ephir0th said:

Maybe TGP realigning after a gimbal limit? If it this to avoid it don't low your nose below your target.

No, that's not it. I always reset the gimbal to boresight when it's been to the limit for whatever reason. It still happens anyway.

[jaylw314]

The behavior in-game is that of TV image tracking problems, not a gimbal limit.  POINT and AREA modes supposedly track the target, not by the targets known position, but by moving the camera to track an area on the TV image by contrast and shape.

 

Video tracking modes only seem to work at certain angles--you can see in other areas when they turn into P-INR and A-INR, the video tracking is presumably off temporarily and turned back on when the camera is in a better angle.

 

The area in question is about 10 degrees wide about 20 degrees down from the boresight cross.  If the camera passes through there, the video tracking algorithms fail for whatever reason.  Unlike to the side and rear, the TGP does not revert to INR mode, again, for whatever reason.

 

Whether this happens in real life, I have never heard any substantial information to confirm it does or does not.

If it DOES, I would suspect it's a failure in the video tracking algorithm near the camera's longitudinal axis.  The algorithm probably tracks the image with simple up/down/left/right commands, but as you get closer to that axis, the left/right commands become less and less accurate, since they tend to spin the camera more than translate left and right.  At some point, the algorithm commands full scale left/right commands and can't keep up, and it gives up in petulance.  This could be avoided by reverting to automatically reverting to INR mode like in other areas, of course.

 

Of course, that's all speculation on my part, but I'm still hoping we'll someday hear someone with RL experience corroborate any of this

Edited August 25, 2021 by jaylw314

[5ephir0th]

10 hours ago, King39 said:

No, that's not it. I always reset the gimbal to boresight when it's been to the limit for whatever reason. It still happens anyway.

 

Imagine you fly towards the target which on your -5 degree mark, you boresight your TGP, point it to the target and then you low your nose below the target, TGP will still roll and lose the target due to this and you will see "Gimball roll" momentary on the TGP.

[Sacarino111]

1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

 

Imagine you fly towards the target which on your -5 degree mark, you boresight your TGP, point it to the target and then you low your nose below the target, TGP will still roll and lose the target due to this and you will see "Gimball roll" momentary on the TGP.

Hi. I m with you. To me it looks like the TGP comes to a point where the tarbet is exactly on the longitudinal axis and it gas to re acomodate, loosing the targt loxk. Again with you, dont turn so hard that the velocity vector is underneath the target position, keep the aricraft nose comfortably above the target, to avoid the TGP to reacomodate.

Saludos. 

Saca111

[falcon_120]

I think this is a well modeled limitation of TGPs when in Point or Area track as this modes relies on algorithms to track an object or areas of the ground. In these cases high G or just masking the target for a second can cause a tracking problem.

This is solved by using INS mode that use coordinates. If I recall correctly Wags posted a video about this although I think it was using the Viper (same Litening pod, same limitations)

I'm other modules like the Jf17 IIRC the pod automatically enters INS mode when any masking or high G maneuver occurs.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Morat]

I think I'll have to experiment and see if I can get a video of the behaviour.

Thing is, you don't have to be manouvering very hard to put the target above your nose if you're at a relatively low altitude. Even 30 degrees of bank can mean you're moving the target above your wingline (which I guess is the crucial aspect for the pod), especially if you're turning towards the pod. The odd thing, for me, is that the pod tracks just fine as you enter the turn. It's when you roll out that it loses track. At least, that's my impression before testing.

 

If we have any RL Hog pilots, I'd be fascinated to hear their view!

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Morat

[falcon_120]

Well of course a track or video would be helpful to See if it is in fact a bug that needs to be worked on.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[King39]

40 minutes ago, Morat said:

If we have any RL Hog pilots, I'd be fascinated to hear their view!

I agree with your opinion but as I stated above I seriously doubt this occurs in real life. The chance of a H.E. rocket or (lased) GBU landing on a civilian populous would be far too high to justify the continued (TGP) use with this defect. I suspect this problem is limited (somehow) to the game and it's AI. They (aircrew) just wouldn't stand for it and I know squadron CC's simply wouldn't allow this situation to occur unabated.

Imagine a 2000lbs GBU landing on a Afghani village by mistake (due to this TGP hop)...

My $.02

[Yurgon]

27 minutes ago, King39 said:

The chance of a H.E. rocket or (lased) GBU landing on a civilian populous would be far too high to justify the continued (TGP) use with this defect.

 

I don't think I've ever observed the behavior described in this thread, so I can't say anything from personal experience in DCS.

 

However, in real life there are countless procedures and limitations in place to make sure that things don't go wrong. For instance, I've read that IRL pilots would put the TGP MFCD on the same side as the TGP, so when the TGP is hanging on station 2 it's the left MFCD, and station 10 they'll use the right MFCD, just so pilots get an intuitive understanding where the pod is hanging and how it affects masking by the aircraft. We can do this in DCS, no problem at all, but the manual doesn't mention it.

 

So if there's kind of a blind spot within the TGPs normal field of view where no masking occurs, but where the optics rotating back and forth could easily tangle themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if pilots were taught how to fly the aircraft so that this kind of entanglement does not develop into a problem.

 

And as far as I'm aware, the type of ad-hoc LGB attack that we tend to do in DCS isn't the way it's normally done IRL, where controllers on the ground or wingmen could, and often would, provide lasing to allow the attacking jet to get the hell out of dodge and take care of evasive maneuvers during the bomb's fall time.

 

Also, you speak of rockets; if you're referring to laser guided rockets, all of the above applies. But in case you're referring to unguided rockets, pilots really need to acquire the target visually AFAIK. I don't think they'd just rifle on a caret on their HUD, unless in a very permissive environment where friendly fire and collateral damage are of no concern.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Yurgon

[King39]

Well, I stand corrected and I apologize ED. The TGP "Hop" as I call it is a real thing.

Look at exactly 1:00 on this video just as he is coming off target...

 

 

Again E.D., my apologies. 

John

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, King39 said:

Well, I stand corrected and I apologize ED. The TGP "Hop" as I call it is a real thing.

Look at exactly 1:00 on this video just as he is coming off target...

 

 

Again E.D., my apologies. 

John

 

Hey, uh, I'm pretty sure that's just a shot from DCS run through some blurring and video filters 

 

[Hammer1-1]

yeah thats DCS

[King39]

Agreed. My mistake. Yeah that's DCS Poti in the background. 

 

So, the problem persists...

[silverdevil]

i was able to get a track of this issue. the tgp wandered a couple times.

20210906.zip

Edited September 6, 2021 by silverdevil
file download hosed

[silverdevil]

Since this post appears to have lost interest, how does one get the pod to go back to the original point before the wander? I must move the SPI back to where the targets are... with hope I can find them. TIA.

[Caldera]

Silver,

 

I have gotten into such a habit of making a mark point for just about every target (everything almost) because the TGP so much likes to wander off and at the worst time.  This is from my own experience and from the advice of allot of veterans who have posted.

 

If the TGP wanders off I simply re-set (re-cage to bore) the TGP using the top right button on the right MFCD with the TGP as SOI.  This function I have mapped to my HOTAS.  With the STEER PT switch in Mark I make sure to have the correct mark point for the target I want selected on the HUD.  I then slave the TGP to the steer point using China Hat aft long.  On the MFCD, the TGP gate bars will extend and the TGP changes mode (I believe it is steer point mode, but not positive).  To place in back in for example INR-A I simply slew the TGP slightly. 

 

So... 

 

With two button presses on my HOTAS I can quickly re-set the TGP back on target when it wanders off.  I can do this easily in the middle of an attack run.  Just be careful, because if the TGP is in "steer point mode" the auto lase feature for GBU's will not work.

 

Caldera

[jdfocus1985]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:30 AM, MoppleTheWhale42 said:

In my experience, that's what happens, when the TGP is in area or point tracking mode, and you fly high-g maneuvers. I do not know whether this happens with the real TGP as well.

What I do to prevent this: If I have to fly aggressive maneuvers, or fly away from a tracked target, to which I want to return, I put the TGP into the INS mode. This way it preserves the location it is aiming at.

Your method is for static targets, then there is no point to use point track to start with. if your target is moving along a curvy road inside a mountainous area covered by lots of trees,  then it is going to be real hard to reaccquire, causing disorientation and may force you to do another turn. 

[Ready]

I drop a mark point on a target when I expect that I have to make some evasive maneuvers and might lose it in the TGP. I know the TGP sometimes wanders off and try to fly more relaxed, not to upset it too much. This usually helps.  

[jaylw314]

If it's a moving target in the TGP, dropping a mark point every couple minutes with the TGP as SOI and putting the STEER switch to MARK will create a line of mark points visible in the HMCS that will visibly guide you back to your target if you lose it.

[King39]

I've been trying to remember to Mark Point every target just for that reason. When I first noticed it, it would only happen when lining up and attempting to engage within 2 miles. Now it seems to be doing that little "hop" as I call it on most targets irregardless of range.

There's just NO WAY this would be allowed to happen IRL. Image lining up for a JDAM or Maverick strike, pickling, and suddenly the TGP "hops" onto a civilian house or vehicle. I know I would have a hard time living with that.