So Many SAMs

[SharpeXB]

I don’t do MP very often so maybe I’m not so familiar with typical mission design, I fly mostly on BuddySpike and DDCS when I get the chance. Every scenario map is just a giant overlapping SAM threat zone. To the point where SEAD looks like the only useful role and the game becomes a PvE game rather than PvP. Why design missions like this? 

[Mr_sukebe]

Whenever I’ve seen maps of real air defence systems, there were a ton of overlapping SAM.  So chances are that the mission designers were basing their ideas on realistic scenarios.

And being fair to them, why would they expect you to only fly solo?  After all, you can do that in self built missions.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Whenever I’ve seen maps of real air defence systems, there were a ton of overlapping SAM

Sure IRL… real air defense systems would be kinda useless if they didn’t cover everything. 

 this is a game though. A realistic one but still a game. 

[StevanJ]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure IRL… real air defense systems would be kinda useless if they didn’t cover everything. 

 this is a game though. A realistic one but still a game. 

Watch out pal, the 'realism police' will start hounding you if you keep talking 'its only a game'..

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Watch out pal, the 'realism police' will start hounding you if you keep talking 'its only a game'..

Well if realism is the goal where’s the F-117 strike package that would go take out this IADS? A realistic SP mission would have stuff like that. 

[StevanJ]

I think youre the man to make this happen..

I believe in you x

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

I think youre the man to make this happen.

Eh when my Stable Version window has closed its back to SP for me. 
 

I get the quandary here, without all these air defenses a few players in A-10s could get on the server during off hours and just destroy the entire map. Does that ever happen though? These missions don’t seem to run long enough to allow that. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

Bump… yeah I can’t fathom how anyone figures this is good mission design. The whole point of MP is players! The map is so thick with SAM sites it’s hardly possible to have any action between players. I don’t get it. 

[nighthawk2174]

I think Baghdad in the gulf war had something like 60 sam sights defending it.  In DCS part of the high number of sam's is due to how poorly modeled they are, they don't really keep players out unless there are so many you just can't dodge all of them.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

I think Baghdad in the gulf war had something like 60 sam sights defending it

Yeah but then came the F-117s…

The servers are trying to… what? Model a realistically dense IADS to go up against a disorganized outnumbered uncoordinated mob of players. Defenses like that were subject to sophisticated attacks which aren’t feasible in a multiplayer game environment. 

[SharpeXB]

It seems that the SAMs in MP are set to a skill level where no weapons are effective against them. They’ll shut off their radar to avoid HARMs so those aren’t useful. They can target incoming stand-off weapons like SLAMs or JSOWs. There are only about 12 players online on some of these servers so it would take some highly coordinated attack by every player on the team just to get at one of these sites. I’m not sure if this is such a great idea for mission design…

[Kazansky222]

46 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It seems that the SAMs in MP are set to a skill level where no weapons are effective against them. They’ll shut off their radar to avoid HARMs so those aren’t useful. They can target incoming stand-off weapons like SLAMs or JSOWs. There are only about 12 players online on some of these servers so it would take some highly coordinated attack by every player on the team just to get at one of these sites. I’m not sure if this is such a great idea for mission design…

 

Actually, that is a great mission design.

 

Rewarding teamwork and coordination in the multiplayer server, thats what its all about.

 

Have some buddies pushing away airborne threats, somebody fires the ARMs to shut down the radars, then runs in with clusters & rockets to take'em out, and then follow on strikes to finish off the objective.

 

You should join a squadron or just be active in discord/srs to make buddies with people to coordinate with.

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Kazansky222 said:

Rewarding teamwork and coordination in the multiplayer server, thats what its all about.

I get why it’s done that way, really. On these persistent missions, during an off-hour, a single player could conquer the entire map if it’s undefended. But I don’t see this level of teamwork ever actually happening. It’s rather a Catch-22

[Kazansky222]

I see it fairly frequently on the team I'm on, there are some dedicated guys out there. I'm not sure your timezone, but generally speaking if you see a bunch of dudes running on the server in the same squadron just ask'em for an invite to their discord or something along those lines, and you can work with them to accomplish whatever they're trying to do.

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Kazansky222 said:

but generally speaking if you see a bunch of dudes running on the server in the same squadron just ask'em for an invite to their discord or something along those lines, and you can work with them to accomplish whatever they're trying to do.

That would make sense but I don’t see anyone like that. I’m on Discord but I don’t hear anything that seems like teamwork between players. 

[Kazansky222]

47 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That would make sense but I don’t see anyone like that. I’m on Discord but I don’t hear anything that seems like teamwork between players. 

 

Oh yea everybody is on their own squadron discord doing coordinations, and then the intra squadron coordinations are usually via chat, Just ask for a discord invite from one of the squadrons you see when you're on.

[BonerCat]

The thing about SAM in DCS is this:
SAM are stiupid
Unless the Skynet script is running on the server, a radar will happily wait until the HARM impact
And even an unsupressed SAM is vulnerable to low altitude attacks. With good low level (viggen style) flying, you can overfly pretty much any SAM site (unless it's in the middle of the desert with no cover. Yes, trees are cover).
With the Skynet script and good SAM grouping/positioning, it becomes challenging, but even then, taking a mix of HARM and MAV, shutting down the radars with a HARM, and then killing them with MAVS works wonders. And you can replace the MAVS with any other weapon, really, just as long as it's not an ARM
Every sam site is different, but i can assure you, none are invulnerable.

[SharpeXB]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:27 AM, BonerCat said:

shutting down the radars with a HARM

Why would the SAM shut down it’s radar when it could just shoot down the incoming HARM? SAMs can target SLAMs and it’s the same missile so I would think they can just target the HARM too. 

[Frederf]

SAM missile supplies are limited and the ability to hit a M3-4 HARM is typically not a capability of systems. In addition doctrine is often to use several HARMs at once. If the SAM is prosecuting HARMs then it isn't protecting whatever it was designed to protect anyway which reduces the value in remaining online. They are suppressed either way. HARMs are not SLAMs. SLAMs are essentially AGM-84 Harpoons, a much slower, fatter missile than an AGM-88.

[QuiGon]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Why would the SAM shut down it’s radar when it could just shoot down the incoming HARM? SAMs can target SLAMs and it’s the same missile so I would think they can just target the HARM too. 

 

As @Frederf said: HARMs (AGM-88) are not SLAMs (AGM-84E), not even a variant of them. SLAMs are a variant of the Harpoon (AGM-84).

The SLAM/Harpoon is a much slower subsonic missiles compared to the supersonic High-Speed-Anti-Radiation-Missile, which is much more difficult to intercept because of this.

Edited September 13, 2021 by QuiGon

[Sobakopes]

Player vs SAM is the bane of this game. All missions are sead then proceed to plink tanks with guided weapons. Just watch the game play itself with homing missiles and all sorts of cockpit screens. 

This game has a chance to see reasonable and sensible missions with mi8 and mi24 modules where you support and eliminate actual troopers with cannon and rockets. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Sobakopes