in roadmap DCS F16 turn performance

[Spurts]

8 hours ago, karasawa said:

I really don't find any reason why a F-16C with 2 amraams and 2 sidewinders has lower STR than a similarly loaded 402 powered hornet.

 

IRL it isn't lower, it is similar.  As an aero engineer I could tell you why.  Drag.  The Hornet as a straighter and higher aspect ratio wing, the first will steepen the CL/AoA curve so more lift is made at lower AoA and the second will reduce any drag produced per unit lift.  This hornet has a notional 35,000lb thrust.  20% more than the Viper.  The Hornet has more features to reduce induced drag than the Viper, and the Viper has more features to reduce wave drag than the Hornet.

[Hummingbird]

One big advantage the F-16 has in terms of drag during a turn is its negative stability in the pitch axis, basically eliminating trim drag and adding the horizontal tail plane as an additional lifting surface.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Versor]

Hi

BIGNEWY is any FM update for Viper is planned for today?

 

[Hummingbird]

Im sure they will let us know when it's close. 

[fapador]

I heard it was planned for Late August. Its the 31st today..

[Spurts]

A plan is just that, a plan.  Difficulties could make timelines slip.  Have patience.  

[fapador]

Well I dont want to sound rude here, but it wont be one of the few first times ED has fallen out of schedule. I consider consistency very important as a client. Nevertheless if they want to run on a loose schedule they should try to avoid public  announcement of timelines to prevent dissapointment.

[Hummingbird]

2 hours ago, fapador said:

Well I dont want to sound rude here, but it wont be one of the few first times ED has fallen out of schedule. I consider consistency very important as a client. Nevertheless if they want to run on a loose schedule they should try to avoid public  announcement of timelines to prevent dissapointment.

 

and then people will complain that they're saying nothing.

 

Now I don't know about you, but personally I prefer a rough timeline over no word at all. At least we know it's close.

[Spurts]

There is no way to prevent dissapointment.  Some customers want the "best guess" and some was "exact date or nothing".  They can't do both.  And it has nothing to do with "loose schedule", it is simply the nature of complex software.  You can force a release date, only to introduce more bugs than you fixed, or you can accept that release might be delayed if the issue became more complex than you initially planned.

 

[TobiasA]

The last statement was "we hope for autumn" so I am happy if it comes before the Apache is released. 

Fingers crossed that we see one or two major Viper update(s) before christmas.

The development won't get any faster regardless of how often we talk about the flaws in the forum. 

[Spurts]

Exactly

[fapador]

@BIGNEWY Can we expect FM update Tommorow?

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, fapador said:

@BIGNEWY Can we expect FM update Tommorow?

 

Hi please have a read here, Wags explains the flight model tweaks that need to be made and are planned for the Autumn. 

 

Thanks

[darkman222]

I dont understand why people keep asking. People at ED work on it, they know about it and they wont release anything until it is done and rock solid. If someone finds new errors again this endless discusion will start all over again. Nobody here wants that and nobody at ED wants that for sure either.

The most important question is if the Viper pilot also gets an updated G behavior. Because if not, a more accurate FM will also help to make the pilot blackout earlier.

Edited September 17, 2021 by darkman222

[SCPanda]

5 hours ago, darkman222 said:

I dont understand why people keep asking. People at ED work on it, they know about it and they wont release anything until it is done and rock solid. If someone finds new errors again this endless discusion will start all over again. Nobody wants that and nobody at ED wants that for sure either.

The most important question is if the Viper pilot also gets an updated G behavior. Because if not, a more accurate FM will also help to make the pilot blackout earlier.

 

Totally agree. The entire G modeling in DCS needs to be tweaked, black out instantly at 9G is just ridiculous. Also modeling the inclined seat effect, which gives Viper pilots better G tolerance than pilots flying other jets. 

[BIGNEWY]

If you dont warm up for pulling G you are not going to be able to sustain it long, the black out is not instantaneous however. 

 

Please dont derail the thread with G discussion keep it about the flight model.

 

thank you 

[nighthawk2174]

8 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

If you dont warm up for pulling G you are not going to be able to sustain it long, the black out is not instantaneous however. 

 

Please dont derail the thread with G discussion keep it about the flight model.

 

thank you 

Does this also include a look at the FLCS?  As it just feels like there is something off, I can't quantify it but something doesn't seem right with it.

[schurem]

Oh I like what happened to the viper's FM/FLCS. Just took a short hop, but it feels proper fighterlike now. Those poor flankers never stood a chance

Edited September 17, 2021 by schurem

[Xavven]

There's a real risk of this just being confirmation of my expectations, so at the risk of public internet embarrassment if my mind is playing tricks, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think the FM changes this patch are really amazing.

 

I seem to have more G available at higher speeds and medium altitude. Pre-patch at ~10,000 ft I'd be in the 3.5-6.0 G range to sustain airspeed, and now post-patch I'm more like 5.0-7.5 G give or take. Rate fights seem easier.

 

It seems much smoother at lower speeds as well. For example if the hostile reverses the turn and I pull as hard as possible around 350 knots to switch to a 1C fight, there used to be way more shaking and buffeting. Now the F-16 seems really compliant. It just slots itself right where I want it to go.

 

So it seems like a more competent dogfighter compared to before. What does everyone else think?

[Enduro14]

Yup night and day difference for me.  Very happy with the direction its going

[fapador]

Its better in the air but worse in landing. I cant seem to keep my nose up at 15 degrees AOA flare below 130 knots . Before I could keep it till 95 . Can anyone else

confirm?

 

 

PS: now when I touch down the aircraft wants to more violently  pitch down towards the front gear or it might be just me I am not to sure 

Edited September 18, 2021 by fapador

[feipan]

Hopped on a dogfight server and did some ACM and BFM. Against the hornet I had no chance. He was laughing while we were in a perpetual rate war and I could never get my nose on him. Even going vertical I had no chance. Just halfway pulling the stick still bleeds too much energy. I lost every match. 

 

Jumping into an JF-17 instead evened the odds.

 

On a different session, fighting with 4 amraams and 2 9x at 13k ft felt like turning like an airliner again. Is the store drag accurate?

 

 

[b0bl00i]

Yes it seems we are still ways of the expected performance. Let's see what the other changes make. 

[BIGNEWY]

 

1 hour ago, feipan said:

Hopped on a dogfight server and did some ACM and BFM. Against the hornet I had no chance. He was laughing while we were in a perpetual rate war and I could never get my nose on him. Even going vertical I had no chance. Just halfway pulling the stick still bleeds too much energy. I lost every match. 

 

Jumping into an JF-17 instead evened the odds.

 

On a different session, fighting with 4 amraams and 2 9x at 13k ft felt like turning like an airliner again. Is the store drag accurate?

 

 

by all means add your evidence in the form of a track replay we are happy to take a look. 

[Hummingbird]

I'll have a look later, should easily be able to notice a difference if there is any. It was mainly at low speeds that STR suffered previously, and a bit at high speeds. 

 

Lack of ITR and G-onset was a bigger issue, and that aint fixed yet, but is planned based on the changelog. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Hummingbird