requested Proposal for VR head limits implementation

[Gunslinger22]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

No Einstein, I’m saying your pathetic hypothetical cheating advantage of a vr user is no different than calling greater than 1:1 track Ir user a cheater. Except because its what you want you will never see it that way.  Grow up!

Exactly this, I'm quite sure how my message was being missed. Honestly the pros and cons of VR and TIR level one another out realistically, that's why I find it so funny when people complain about minor advantages VR gives or the lack of 'realism' despite both being massively present in how TIR works. Either fixed both or don't do anything to current VR implementation.

 

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I don’t worry about it being a cheat so much as it just being ugly and awkward. 

What is far more ugly and awkward from experience in other sims is the jarring and brain-disconnecting feeling when leaning forward or sideways and you are blocked within the cockpit. 

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t worry about it being a cheat so much as it just being ugly and awkward. 

Fair enough 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Gunslinger22 said:

What is far more ugly and awkward from experience in other sims is the jarring and brain-disconnecting feeling when leaning forward or sideways and you are blocked within the cockpit. 

I get that part. It’s rather a Catch-22 

[kablamoman]

Please stay on topic, guys.

 

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t worry about it being a cheat so much as it just being ugly and awkward. 

No you don't because by your own admission, it is not something you ever see. You are not affected by how it looks.

  

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I get that part. It’s rather a Catch-22 

If you get that part, then you understand that it being “ugly” is a non-issue and that it is the exact opposite of being awkward. So your non-worries are largely irrelevant even if they existed.

 

Also, that's not what a catch-22 is.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Tippis

[barry_c]

8 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

This is a much bigger “cheat” than this thread topic. 

Dawger for most of us it isn't the cheating element that's the game breaker, we just want an OPTION so its not awkward ugly, I like limits as do many others, have them client side IDC. I just want to not smash my head through every two seconds.

 

And anways, people that are PRO VR Limits are going to be PRO TIR limits by definition, hell even have those client side.

 

[Baldrick33]

I said this somewhat in jest earlier in this thread but having just tried the BF109 to check out where it clips I do think a clunk or similar when the head hits the glass would add a lot to the immersion of when to stop moving.

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, barry_c said:

Dawger for most of us it isn't the cheating element that's the game breaker, we just want an OPTION so its not awkward ugly, I like limits as do many others, have them client side IDC. I just want to not smash my head through every two seconds.

 

And anways, people that are PRO VR Limits are going to be PRO TIR limits by definition, hell even have those client side.

 

It has been admitted throughout this thread that the true goal is a server side option. That puts the lie to the idea that the impetus behind this is for personal use. 
 

BigNewy confirmed this himself by stating they were looking at solutions to prevent “cheating”.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by =475FG= Dawger

[majapahit]

This is supposedly 'off topic' but TrackIR guys still have an advantage on server dog fighting, because their head movement is not 1:1, so a bit of 'cheating' evens the odds (not even, in dog fighting/ACM you need to predict the movement of the other aircraft, and scanning 5:1 whilst zooming makes this a lot easier).

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by majapahit

[StevanJ]

On 8/17/2021 at 5:12 PM, Shallot said:

@cfrag,

 

I know Creep and Kablamoman are both approaching this from a Warbirds perspective. Those aircraft have far smaller cockpits, sometimes to the point where a user may accidentally clip their head through the cockpit while tracking a target.

 

@barry_c was charming enough to make a video displaying roughly how much one had to move in order to peek outside in a 109K. Granted it's probably the most restrictive cockpit in the game, but still shows that one can do it without needing to contort to unreasonable lengths.

 

 

If you seriously need to stick your head out of the cockpit like this guy, then theres something VERY wrong with your ability to control a machine with 6 degrees of freedom.
Is this kid okay?
If theres something on my 5 oclock, why wouldnt i just turn a little into it, and make life easier for myself?

It makes no sense to me, to physically move your head and body so much in a plane just to 'spot something'.
Can you imagine? Youre a WW2 Pilot, and you have to open your cockpit to 'have a good look' at the guy on your 5 o'clock?
Just turn into him a little. Bobs your uncle.

[Lt_Jaeger]

Like I said, if you WANT to cheat, it is possible, for me, I have enough self control to NOT stick my head out of the cockpit, even in a 109. Might be an age thing, but I prefer a sore neck to being an a.. to myself.

 

Once in a while, I admit, I stick my head deliberately out of the canopy to admire the flames coming out of the exhaust ports of my 605, but that's about it. Took me a very long time to even figure out that it is possible to do so. 

 

Don't fix stuff that ain't broken, better give me more fps. 

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

My whole argument is two fold. 
1. if it is cheating(which still is pretty juvenile a concern) then so is a greater than 1:1 head ratio on track IR. 
2. And the most important. It’s not worth the resources to “fix”’when there is Sooooomuch wrong with the VR experience!  
Why are all the flat screen guys suddenly so concerned about VR? There are post after post telling VR guys their experience doesn’t matter because it’s fringe.  Answer is its now important because some flat screen junkie feels like he’s no longer whole because he may loose to a cheat.  
 I get there are some vr guys that don’t care for it. Fine, build a physical barrier to stop your head! THATS REAL! Not some half ass fade to black. That’s NOT REAL. 

In my eyes it’s about resources.  Use them to fix crap frame rates and other big VR issues then come back for the minutia. 
You “it’s a cheat” guys really need to focus on what really matters…..

regards 

[StevanJ]

2 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

Like I said, if you WANT to cheat, it is possible, for me, I have enough self control to NOT stick my head out of the cockpit, even in a 109. Might be an age thing, but I prefer a sore neck to being an a.. to myself.

 

Once in a while, I admit, I stick my head deliberately out of the canopy to admire the flames coming out of the exhaust ports of my 605, but that's about it. Took me a very long time to even figure out that it is possible to do so. 

 

Don't fix stuff that ain't broken, better give me more fps. 

Ive never EVER seen anyone gain an advantage by sticking there head so far out of the cockpit, thats just bad piloting.
The idea is to point the guns on your plane at the bad guy, not look for the bad guy with an outer cockpit experience.
While this guy is performing 'in cockpit acrobatics' he'll be getting shot down, by someone more focused.

If a video comes up that points out that there is an advantage (ie human on human- But there 100% wont be unless someone is purposefully flying bad to make a none existing point)- then ill consider this important.
Otherwise, this isnt even worth the conversation.

Its not worth even looking at.. I mean theyve not even stopped to think about trackIR'.

Edited August 21, 2021 by StevanJ

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, barry_c said:

people that are PRO VR Limits are going to be PRO TIR limits by definition

TrackIR cannot move your head through the canopy. I think we all know this but if you’ve never used it, it can’t. TrackIR doesn’t need “limits” it only affords you the same view you’d see in reality, albeit on a 2D screen. 

4 hours ago, majapahit said:

TrackIR guys still have an advantage on server dog fighting, because their head movement is not 1:1

Head tracking cannot work with a 1:1 ratio. In order to see behind you on a screen which is in front of you the axis needs to be magnified. There’s no other way for it to work. Again, head tracking doesn’t allow you to see anything that the real pilot couldn’t nor does it let you move your view outside the canopy limit. 

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I get that but 1. You get complete rear visual (minus structural blocks) with minimum head movements. Additionally, you can cheat by looking at your six and see your gages if your set up correctly(for those cheat conscious folks. 

Again, your using track Ir so you will never see the other side of that argument. Rational is no longer a human trait in today’s society so just pass on defending your point on this. 
The main point is that its a useless waist of resources given all that needs to be done.
 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[=475FG= Dawger]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again, head tracking doesn’t allow you to see anything that the real pilot couldn’t nor does it let you move your view outside the canopy limit. 

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

That’s the zoom view effect, not anything to do with head tracking. And frankly that’s self limiting, you’re trading off FOV for scale, so no advantage is really gained. You could do the same effect looking forward. Many games have an adjustable FOV and I’m not aware of any that consider it a cheat, just for that reason. I personally find the default fisheye wide FOV to be really awkward, I’m sure it’s meant for triple screens. Plus your real life field of vision is about 200d. Put that on a monitor and this is the effect you get, so the screenshot here is actually “realistic”

[=475FG= Dawger]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s the zoom view effect, not anything to do with head tracking. And frankly that’s self limiting, you’re trading off FOV for scale, so no advantage is really gained. You could do the same effect looking forward. Many games have an adjustable FOV and I’m not aware of any that consider it a cheat, just for that reason. I personally find the default fisheye wide FOV to be really awkward, I’m sure it’s meant for triple screens. Plus your real life field of vision is about 200d. Put that on a monitor and this is the effect you get, so the screenshot here is actually “realistic”

So, the fact that the “head” in that image would have to be somewhere in the vicinity of the gunsite totally escapes your notice? To  see what is presented in that image, a real pilot would have to be sitting on the joystick with his back inside or pressed against the instrument panel. 
 

Zoom effect, my non-joystick riding VR posterior. 

[kablamoman]

This topic is about the VR implementation of the game and making it more robust and immersive. To the people posting pictures of high FOV from the flat screen mode as if it has anything to do with VR, please take it somewhere else.

 

If there is a real argument for allowing heads to pop through solid canopies aside from the risk of motion sickness (which this proposal was meant to address), I have yet to hear it.

 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

To  see what is presented in that image, a real pilot would have to be sitting on the joystick with his back inside or pressed against the instrument panel.

Well there’s still a limit to how far you can move your viewpoint even if it’s a bit outlandish. There is also some trick with the eye point I think to allow the player to see the cockpits which in reality are quite small. Your eye point is like it’s modeled in the center of your head. The fisheye view is exaggerating the effect too. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

2 hours ago, kablamoman said:

This topic is about the VR implementation of the game and making it more robust and immersive. To the people posting pictures of high FOV from the flat screen mode as if it has anything to do with VR, please take it somewhere else.

 

If there is a real argument for allowing heads to pop through solid canopies aside from the risk of motion sickness (which this proposal was meant to address), I have yet to hear it.

 

That’s because your only hearing what you want to hear. There have been many points, discussions and counter points but the baseline argument is that ITS NOT A BIG ENOUGH CONCERN TO WARRANT THE TIME AND RESOURCES REQUIRED TO MAKE A WHOLESALE CHANGE IN THE WAY DSC OPERATES FROM MP PERSPECTIVE. 

Is that clear enough and on topic for the third thread that’s been created now trying to win an argument? 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[kablamoman]

2 hours ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

That’s because your only hearing what you want to hear. There have been many points, discussions and counter points but the baseline argument is that ITS NOT A BIG ENOUGH CONCERN TO WARRANT THE TIME AND RESOURCES REQUIRED TO MAKE A WHOLESALE CHANGE IN THE WAY DSC OPERATES FROM MP PERSPECTIVE. 

Is that clear enough and on topic for the third thread that’s been created now trying to win an argument? 

 

I have read everything. 

 

Being able to stick your head through canopy geometry in VR is jarring, immersion breaking, and should absolutely be disallowed if the server admin on a multiplayer server wishes to do so. There is literally no argument that supports not implementing features to fix this, aside from the risk of hard limits inducing motion sickness.

 

No amount of mealy-mouthed equivocating about traditional 2D head tracking solutions (with their own long established standards and inherent set of limitations) being able to do silly things changes that. It's a red herring, and just muddies the waters of the discussion, which is about improving upon VR support in DCS.

 

I play in VR, and I think it's important to my enjoyment of the sim, as do many others. For those that don't care, discussion and/or implementation of these limitations would have zero impact on their enjoyment unless their enjoyment is predicated upon being able to stick their head through solid objects like a ghost, in a multiplayer environment that is supposed to be an accurate simulation of air combat. Otherwise, absolutely nothing would change about their experience.

[Tippis]

7 hours ago, kablamoman said:

There is literally no argument that supports not implementing features to fix this, aside from the risk of hard limits inducing motion sickness.

…and aside from the fact that options don't work the way you want them to.

…and aside from the resources being used for something more relevant than what is largely a non-issue.

…and aside from how it would have to cascade into 2D to “fix” the same thing there, thus requiring even more resources.

…and aside from how the arguments in favour of the idea have an interesting habit of coming from people who confess outright that they don't actually know what they're discussing, making their suggestions spectacularly misinformed.

 

So no, what you mean is that there are figuratively no arguments against it, since literally, there are, and that this metaphorical non-existence only comes about by ignoring the  arguments against it that have been presented.

[shagrat]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb majapahit:

This is supposedly 'off topic' but TrackIR guys still have an advantage on server dog fighting, because their head movement is not 1:1, so a bit of 'cheating' evens the odds (not even, in dog fighting/ACM you need to predict the movement of the other aircraft, and scanning 5:1 whilst zooming makes this a lot easier).

 

 

Actually there is a head movement limit implemented in DCS, that applies neatly to Track it and prevents you from rotating your head further than over your shoulder. You even need to lean forward as IRL to better check six.

The perceived "cheat" is actually the Field Of View, compressing a wide viewing angle into a 2D screen. The problem is, this isn't even remotely compensating for the limitations we have in DCS vs. real life. And this is true for 2D-TrackIR and VR headsets, alike.

Your real life view including peripheral vision includes far more than what either VR or a flat screen can provide.

That doesn't even account for the fact we can't glance sideways with our eyes in DCS as we are "staring" straight ahead, fixed to our head position...

So if you limit the head movement you can't even look behind you in VR, as you can only tilt and turn your head so far. Same for TrackIR depending on FOV you can put on your ultra widescreen 3 monitor vs. 1 normal screen.

[Baldrick33]

9 hours ago, kablamoman said:

Being able to stick your head through canopy geometry in VR is jarring, immersion breaking, and should absolutely be disallowed if the server admin on a multiplayer server wishes to do so. There is literally no argument that supports not implementing features to fix this, aside from the risk of hard limits inducing motion sickness.

 

No amount of mealy-mouthed equivocating about traditional 2D head tracking solutions (with their own long established standards and inherent set of limitations) being able to do silly things changes that. It's a red herring, and just muddies the waters of the discussion, which is about improving upon VR support in DCS.

 

I play in VR, and I think it's important to my enjoyment of the sim, as do many others. For those that don't care, discussion and/or implementation of these limitations would have zero impact on their enjoyment unless their enjoyment is predicated upon being able to stick their head through solid objects like a ghost, in a multiplayer environment that is supposed to be an accurate simulation of air combat. Otherwise, absolutely nothing would change about their experience.

This thread will drag on forever if it is simply a collection of individual opinions asserting what is immersive as if for everyone and whether the VR cockpit implementation is a worthy enough multiplayer cheat to require fixing.

 

You have presented a proposal which is a reasonable summary of the many other threads on the topic which appears to cover all bases yet continue to assert your view on immersion as if it is fact and continue to suggest the motivation for people not wishing it changed is to be able to cheat and behave like a ghost.

 

Personally the way it works now is fine for me. As soon as the clipping through the screen commences I back off just enough. It is a subtle warning which I heed. Having the little bit beyond the clipping turn black or pixelate would be far less subtle and hence more immersion breaking for me. That is just my opinion, there is no right answer what we find immersive. Hard limits are simply horrible, nothing to do with motion sickness it is the most immersion breaking option of all for me.

 

The same would apply to multiplayer and would lower immersion, it doesn't mean I want to behave like a ghost, nor wish to cheat. I can understand the desire to stop those that do but don't assume everyone that is happy with the status quo does.

 

ED will have to weigh up how big a deal the "cheating" is, compared with other forms of tracking and whether it would reduce enjoyment for those that don't use it in any way as a cheat or even stop players joining.

 

Maybe a hybrid solution will be best allowing a little clipping for people like me who use it to determine where the limits are and fading out as we move past it.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Baldrick33