BFM against an F14, tips?

[Diesel_Thunder]

I have been doing some BFM against a friend of mine, guns only with him in the 14 and me in a 16, and I am struggling a bit.

 

Going two circle, he always gets the better of me and gets on my 6. Going down to the ground and slow for sure will do that to me every time (F14 with flaps down has an awesome turn rate I've learned). I've been trying to avoid that by keeping my speed up between 400-450 KIAS and staying higher, but even there he gets on my 6. Doing flat and/or rolling scissors will usually shake him and put him in front of me for a moment but by the time that happens I'm low on energy due to the scissors and can't capitalize on the opportunity.

 

Next time I fly against him, I may try to one circle him and try to fight him that way. I thought I would engage the community for advice on how to how better to deal with this sort of fight. Are there better tactics I can use?

[Contact409]

Go up high and try 2 circle.   F14 is known for good performance in 1 circle(and 2 circle in lower alt). you can`t fight it in lower altitude. Just matter of time, he will get behind you.

 

F16 is somewhat crippled right now. Actually any other 3rd Gen aircraft can have advantage in 2 circle or 1 circle fighting F16 right now.

 

I`d suggest you change aircraft for now if you want to do BFM. When the F16 flight performance review has been done. then re-train in F16. 

[hawk4me]

Do not get slow against the F14, If you get slow enough for him to put the flaps down yes he will own you. However if his flaps get jammed then he's fighting the aircraft much more than he already is so you might be able to use that. The 14 will out turn the 16 easily in a 1 circle and still have power left over to pull out of anything he get's into. However going 1 circle against the 14 keeping the speed around 450-470 will make it hard for him to be in a position to put flaps down and forces him to stay fast which is to your advantage. It will take several turns against a 14 to start pulling an advantage on him. Also do not stay at higher altitudes against him below 7500 ft would be best and you should be able to out turn him and he won't have the altitude to drop that big ass nose to get his speed back up. I do normally go 1 circle against the 14 though just to make sure he can't pull flaps and whip around on me. With sidewinders on that's a different story though.

[Xavven]

1-circle at 450 knots? Have I been doing 1-circle wrong? I cash in as much airspeed as possible to get turn radius down...

[SCPanda]

Forgot BFM in the Viper now. FM is still being worked on (ED said change will come in August). It can't outrate (2 circle) most of the jets in DCS and in nose position fights (1 circle), Viper isn't that great anyway due to its AOA limit. The only "fair" fight in Viper with the current FM is probably Viper vs Viper. 

[Dannyvandelft]

The Tomcat is just a better fighter. The Navy used stripped down Vipers (called the F-16N) as aggressors and our Vipers aren't stripped down. The Viper also has limits built into the controls and won't allow you to pull beyond a certain load, whereas the Tomcat can, and will. The Viper has better armament but if you take those advantages away, and you're up against a decent Tomcat driver, you're SOL.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Spurts]

A Viper will out climb a Tomcat if it keeps it's speed up around .8-.9M, but that's about it.

[Snappy]

On 8/9/2021 at 10:18 PM, Xavven said:

1-circle at 450 knots? Have I been doing 1-circle wrong? I cash in as much airspeed as possible to get turn radius down...

No you haven’t.Going 400plus kts in 1 circle isn’t very good idea in my opinion either, certainly not with fox 2 and even guns only you’re just making it easier for your opponent to get into offensive position, not just against an F-14, but just about against anything semi -capable.

That way he can go slightly slower than you and still get easily inside your radius while still keeping reasonably high speed /energy for follow on maneuvering.

Exception to this might be if you merge head-on at medium-to high alt and both pull up straight into a vertical 1circle, but even then I’d try to check his pre-merge speed to get an idea for his possible next move.

I mean, if he’s zipping by at 500+kts and then pulls up, sure then go vertical 1circle at 400-450 with your T/W, but otherwise I agree with you, I wouldn’t go that fast for 1 circle either.

 

regards,

 

Snappy

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Snappy

[kseremak]

I've seen an interview with US Navy pilot flying in Aggressor Squadron on the F-16C Block 30 mimicking Soviet Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters. He said the F-16 had very substantial advantage in BFM and there was very hard for the F-14 pilots to hold their own.

But this were Cold War light F-16 versions, with gun removed. Later F-16 were much heavier and F-16 lost it's BFM edge. What is more their purpose in Aggressor Squadron was to push the F-14 guys really hard to teach them, not to win to score the point.

Edited August 11, 2021 by kseremak

[karasawa]

If you are doing guns only, don't take pylons (which is included by default, even it's shown "empty"). Now F-16's performance is severely influenced by even empty pylons. 

Maintain 10000 feet+, Mach 0.85+ and do 2 circle. F-16 can out-rate Mig-29, F-14 and Sukhois comfortably at this altitude.

Edited August 11, 2021 by karasawa

[karasawa]

2 hours ago, kseremak said:

I've seen an interview with US Navy pilot flying in Aggressor Squadron on the F-16C Block 30 mimicking Soviet Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters. He said the F-16 had very substantial advantage in BFM and there was very hard for the F-14 pilots to hold their own.

But this were Cold War light F-16 versions, with gun removed. Later F-16 were much heavier and F-16 lost it's BFM edge. What is more their purpose in Aggressor Squadron was to push the F-14 guys really hard to teach them, not to win to score the point.

 

Block 50 is not significantly heavier than Block30. The added weight is 1300lbs, and the thrust is also higher. 

After the 2.7.2 update the viper can out-rate some jets (especially the fulcrum) at low alt if you remove the pylons.

[Diesel_Thunder]

Thanks for the tips everyone, I've had some better fights since. One of my favorite new tactics is to force an overshoot once he's behind me, while keeping enough speed/energy to bring the nose around for a quick shot. Flat/rolling scissors works well for this. Other times I will get low, extend, and try to blend in against the terrain and come from an unexpected direction. This tactic plays well with the Vipers small size. Most sessions where we mess around with BFM, we're about 50/50 with our kills against each other.

[Falconeer]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:30 PM, kseremak said:

I've seen an interview with US Navy pilot flying in Aggressor Squadron on the F-16C Block 30 mimicking Soviet Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters. He said the F-16 had very substantial advantage in BFM and there was very hard for the F-14 pilots to hold their own.

But this were Cold War light F-16 versions, with gun removed. Later F-16 were much heavier and F-16 lost it's BFM edge. What is more their purpose in Aggressor Squadron was to push the F-14 guys really hard to teach them, not to win to score the point.

 

 

I really have some thoughts about this one, since the F16 is not even allowed to fly without its gun......

[karasawa]

10 hours ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

Thanks for the tips everyone, I've had some better fights since. One of my favorite new tactics is to force an overshoot once he's behind me, while keeping enough speed/energy to bring the nose around for a quick shot. Flat/rolling scissors works well for this. Other times I will get low, extend, and try to blend in against the terrain and come from an unexpected direction. This tactic plays well with the Vipers small size. Most sessions where we mess around with BFM, we're about 50/50 with our kills against each other.

 Did you remove the pylons?

[coolneko]

14 hours ago, Falconeer said:

 

I really have some thoughts about this one, since the F16 is not even allowed to fly without its gun......

 

The Navy procured a few F-16 variants (designated F-16N) for their aggressor role. It had the gun removed along with some other things to cut the weight down as much as possible.

 

The Block 50 we have in DCS is heavier than the earlier blocks but it is still underperforming slightly in STR and ITR, but the big factors are incorrect AOA and G in certain regimes. ED knows about this and are working on it. Once they release the new FM I have a feeling that OP's tomcat problem won't be much of a problem anymore.

[CaptBadTouch]

A few tips that might help in current version of DCS:

1.) You have a significant acceleration advantage over the 14, especially when the 14 gets slow, spreads wings (and possibly deploys flaps). So get the 14 slow, unload your jet to get speed for a brief few seconds, then start a climb. Keep nose up until you see the 14 drop its nose, now come over the top for a shot.

2.) If the 14 gets on your 6, don't just keep turning. Unload jet, fly straight (or nose down) to get speed and build the separation between you and the 14. Climb once you get to a comfortable speed (say, 550+), invert and split-S back into the 14 (I pull the brakes and idle the engine as I do this for more instantaneous turn and also to collapse my turn circle, as I start the split-S at around 550+ knots). Done right, this should help you even up the fight and recover your lost angles (or force an overshoot). You will have to experiment a bit with the distance to properly execute it. But extending and re-committing is crucial to the current f6 in terms of guns only BFM.

 

The current 16 is pretty bad in guns only BFM, but with a bit of persistence and know how, it can still win fights (sometimes).

Edited August 19, 2021 by CaptBadTouch

[SCPanda]

5 hours ago, CaptBadTouch said:

A few tips that might help in current version of DCS:

1.) You have a significant acceleration advantage over the 14, especially when the 14 gets slow, spreads wings (and possibly deploys flaps). So get the 14 slow, unload your jet to get speed for a brief few seconds, then start a climb. Keep nose up until you see the 14 drop its nose, now come over the top for a shot.

2.) If the 14 gets on your 6, don't just keep turning. Unload jet, fly straight (or nose down) to get speed and build the separation between you and the 14. Climb once you get to a comfortable speed (say, 550+), invert and split-S back into the 14 (I pull the brakes and idle the engine as I do this for more instantaneous turn and also to collapse my turn circle, as I start the split-S at around 550+ knots). Done right, this should help you even up the fight and recover your lost angles (or force an overshoot). You will have to experiment a bit with the distance to properly execute it. But extending and re-committing is crucial to the current f6 in terms of guns only BFM.

 

The current 16 is pretty bad in guns only BFM, but with a bit of persistence and know how, it can still win fights (sometimes).

 

Nice tactics! 

[Theodore42]

This F-16 is 30 years newer than the F-14. I don't think some FM tweaks are going to let an F-16 fly a Hollywood dogfight verses an F-14.

 

The F-14 is an angles fighter so he gets an advantage over the F-16 by pulling "instantaneous turns." The F-16 is an energy fighter and the advantage is in speed, acceleration, and the vertical.

This means you want lag pursuit, lag rolls, and vertical scissors. Rolling scissors and Yo-yos are ok as long as you're fast but flat scissors are right out.

The F-16 pilot will feel like the F-14 is always pointing his guns at him and the F-14 pilot will feel like the F-16 is always going up and over his canopy.

 

Victory for the F-16 is maneuvering to get yourself behind and pointed at the F-14 at the point in time when his energy is lowest (at the top of an apex). If you let the F-14 have too much energy here, even if you are behind him and have more energy, the angles fighter will still be able to get away. Be patient, trap the F-14 in a bad energy state, anticipate his apex when he gets nose high, maneuver behind him, win.

 

Dogfighting in the F-16 is all about efficient flying and timing.

[karasawa]

9 minutes ago, Theodore42 said:

This F-16 is 30 years newer than the F-14. I don't think some FM tweaks are going to let an F-16 fly a Hollywood dogfight verses an F-14.

 

The F-14 is an angles fighter so he gets an advantage over the F-16 by pulling "instantaneous turns." The F-16 is an energy fighter and the advantage is in speed, acceleration, and the vertical.

This means you want lag pursuit, lag rolls, and vertical scissors. Rolling scissors and Yo-yos are ok as long as you're fast but flat scissors are right out.

The F-16 pilot will feel like the F-14 is always pointing his guns at him and the F-14 pilot will feel like the F-16 is always going up and over his canopy.

 

Victory for the F-16 is maneuvering to get yourself behind and pointed at the F-14 at the point in time when his energy is lowest (at the top of an apex). If you let the F-14 have too much energy here, even if you are behind him and have more energy, the angles fighter will still be able to get away. Be patient, trap the F-14 in a bad energy state, anticipate his apex when he gets nose high, maneuver behind him, win.

 

Dogfighting in the F-16 is all about efficient flying and timing.

 

I think you don't know the fact that a real F-16-50 sustains higher turn rate than the F-14, according to the flight manual. What we are hoping to see is that the FM tweak finally shows the real life difference.

[darkman222]

5 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

Dogfighting in the F-16 is all about efficient flying and timing.

 

Exactly. Stay fast against almost any other aircraft in the F16. All thats said above is true. And you have to fight with a pilot who is not fit for the F16s Gs. What seems to work too is to get the speed up to maybe 450 kts use maximum G until almost blackout back to 400 kts. Also that looks to the bandit as if you were committing hard into pulling into him. So he might be tempted to bleed off his energy.

And dont forget. The F14 is an analog aircraft. People like to over G and deploy flaps which will damage the F14 just for a kill. Basically that F14 is crippled after such a fight and would not go up in real life for a long time until overhauled as long as it is repariable.

Basically the F16 restricts the pilot to do any harm to it by reckless flying. Which is an advantage in real life but in DCS might be a disadvantage.

Edited August 19, 2021 by darkman222

[karasawa]

Since the pilot is not fit for high G, I strongly suggest doing 2C fight above 10000 feet. You still enjoy the sustained G advantage at high speed, but you won't be pulling 9G (neither do other jets).

[Theodore42]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:03 AM, karasawa said:

 

I think you don't know the fact that a real F-16-50 sustains higher turn rate than the F-14, according to the flight manual. What we are hoping to see is that the FM tweak finally shows the real life difference.

 

The F-14 is a "low wing-loaded fighter" which means the airframe produces a lot of lift at low speeds. So when the F-14 gets slow his radius gets really small and his pitch authority is still great. Even if the F-16 can keep up with the F-14 under these conditions, the F-16 is losing because the airframe is not designed to efficiently turn at slow speeds. In other words, the F-14 isn't going to wait around 360 degrees while you sustain a perfect 1 degree per second turn advantage over him. He will sacrifice all his speed to whip his nose around and point at you. That's call an "instantaneous turn."

 

The F-16 is a "thrust-to-weight ratio fighter" which means the airframe is efficient at maintaining high speeds, sustaining turns, and climbing. When you are going fast in the vertical and the F-14 follows, even though the F-14 can go fast, the F-16 is winning. It is the nature of the airframe.

 

Concerning the Flight Model update, the only way anyone is going to notice a higher turn rate in the F-16 is if you get your buddy to jump in the F-14 and you both fly perfect sustained circles around each other. And even then, you probably won't be able to tell unless you're flying perfectly for a long time and then go review tacview.

The way the F-16 is flown is going to conceal any advantage a turn rate improvement gets you and that advantage is going to be ridiculously small anyway.

 

The FM update F-16 pilots should be looking forward to is the update between the relationship between Gs and Angle of Attack. The F-16 likes going fast and sustaining Gs. So if the FM is updated such that you can sustain the same number of Gs while at a lower AoA (lower induced drag) then that is going to make a big difference when dogfighting. Basically you will be able to retain energy better 100% of the time and this will massively reward F-16 pilots flying the energy fight.

It won't help you in a flat scissors tho.

[Spurts]

21 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

 

The F-14 is a "low wing-loaded fighter" which means the airframe produces a lot of lift at low speeds.

Just a technical note, it is not a low wing-loaded fighter as wing loading is defined as weight divided by reference wing area (78-129lb/ft^2 depending on fuel and load).  What you are getting at is the high lift coefficient of the F-14 wing (I recently tested this in sim at 2.2).  It is a low lift-loaded fighter, basically wing loading divided by lift coefficient (35.5-58.6lb/ft^2).  By comparison the F-16 wing loading is 66.6-102lb/ft^2 and lift loading is, assuming 1.61Clmax at 25 AoA, 41.4-63.3lb/ft^2.  Of course you can't reach 25 AoA unless you are at 1G.  for 9G you are at 15AoA or less so lift loading there is 55.6-85lb/ft^2 assuming 1.2Clmax.

 

But yes, the Tomcat is a beast horizontally, use the vertical.

[karasawa]

One thing to counter the F-14 in a F-16 is to pull infinite half loops (Immelmann turn) to the vertical. The lower T/W ratio of F-14 makes it to drop altitude earlier than F-16 (from 5:14):