This year Germany's first Eurofighter receives Meteor BVRAAM missile and P2EB software

[schmiefel]

German Luftwaffe (and the rest of its Bundeswehr as well) have a ‘good tradition‘ in making dumb decisions and placing their development and industrial orders on that. This kind of behavior goes ways back to the 3rd Reich Luftwaffe and comes out of a bad mixture from wrong decision makers in uniform, politics and mainly industry driven demands... and I have the bad feeling that nothing will ever change this to the better...

[Hummingbird]

2 hours ago, schmiefel said:

German Luftwaffe (and the rest of its Bundeswehr as well) have a ‘good tradition‘ in making dumb decisions and placing their development and industrial orders on that. This kind of behavior goes ways back to the 3rd Reich Luftwaffe and comes out of a bad mixture from wrong decision makers in uniform, politics and mainly industry driven demands... and I have the bad feeling that nothing will ever change this to the better...

 

Back in WW2 Germany arguably spent too much on next generation tech, and not enough on current stuff. So that comparison doesn't really hold IMO. But the Bundeswehr certainly has a bad rep for sometimes refusing to update where it's necessary, which is silly considering Germany is the financial powerhouse in europe, and yet both Spain & Italy field versions of the EF with PIRATE.

[schmiefel]

57 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

Back in WW2 Germany arguably spent too much on next generation tech, and not enough on current stuff. So that comparison doesn't really hold IMO.

Don‘t want to go much OT, but if you‘re intested in some circumstances from that time I could advice to take a look at the book ‘Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe‘ from David Irving (a very controversial historian but I think in this research he found some interesting connections)...

[Spectre11]

It's more about political decision making. It's not the Luftwaffe saying we don't want PIRATE. 

[QuiGon]

6 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

It was dumb indeed, I just cannot fathom that mistake made twice. 

 

Twice? You mean a fouth time as it has already been repeated with the Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 jets.

Edited August 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[Hummingbird]

8 hours ago, Spectre11 said:

It's more about political decision making. It's not the Luftwaffe saying we don't want PIRATE. 

 

No I understand that, however sometimes things need to be pressed a lot in order to go through, with pilots directly stressing they need it. It's basically what happened with the Leopard 2A7 deal, the gunners position finally got the 3rd gen thermal after the crews stressed how crucial it was, eventhough the deal where they weren't getting it had already been signed politically. I understand this isn't easy, esp. in a bureaucracy like that of Germany, but it can be done.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Hummingbird

[QuiGon]

7 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

but it can be done.

 

But it probably won't be done in this case, as there is absolutely no indication that the Trance 4 procurement for the Luftwaffe includes PIRATE, so this is all just a wild "what if" at this point.

[Spectre11]

PIRATE was considered, but again become a victim to cost cuts. It's not just about procuring the equipment itself, but all the support you need to service and maintain the equipment comes on top. Trials aircraft as part of the contract will likely be equiped with PIRATE. The sensor is somewhat overhyped anyway.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Spectre11 said:

PIRATE was considered, but again become a victim to cost cuts. It's not just about procuring the equipment itself, but all the support you need to service and maintain the equipment comes on top. Trials aircraft as part of the contract will likely be equiped with PIRATE. The sensor is somewhat overhyped anyway.

 

Interesting, thanks!

[Valtime]

The Luftwaffe will get the PIRATE when they agree to call the aircraft by its real name

 

A Eurofighter cannot have the full capability of the Typhoon! 

[Bananabrai]

On 8/11/2021 at 9:39 AM, Spectre11 said:

PIRATE was considered, but again become a victim to cost cuts. It's not just about procuring the equipment itself, but all the support you need to service and maintain the equipment comes on top. Trials aircraft as part of the contract will likely be equiped with PIRATE. The sensor is somewhat overhyped anyway.

 

As far as I know the PIRATE is using the same coolant loop/system and same cooling liquid as the radar, so that sytem is installed anyway.

So appart from replacing the sensor itself or the computers responsible for it to work, the maintenance effort is not getting out of control with PIRATE.

 

I think overhyped is a subjective statement. It will still be a very good aircraft without it, it's just that it is nevertheless a nice addition.

 

1 hour ago, Valtime said:

The Luftwaffe will get the PIRATE when they agree to call the aircraft by its real name

 

A Eurofighter cannot have the full capability of the Typhoon! 

 

Ok ok, let's replace the Panavias with Typhoons, how does that sound?
Was trying to establish the real name in my team at work, no way, freakin everybody calls it EF, that company name is just sticking everywhere.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Bananabrai

[Spectre11]

12 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

 

As far as I know the PIRATE is using the same coolant loop/system and same cooling liquid as the radar, so that sytem is installed anyway.

So appart from replacing the sensor itself or the computers responsible for it to work, the maintenance effort is not getting out of control with PIRATE.

 

You need to update all affected installation drawings, design documents, data bases etc. to introduce the sensor on German aircraft from a design configuration perspective. You need to extend the applicability of the associated logistic data and documentation etc. You potentially need to procure special tooling and support equipment, dependent on the maintenance level. You may need to create facilities for storage and maintenance of the equipment of aircraft. You need to train personnel for pacaking and transportation, for on aircraft maintenance and inspection tasks and possibly off aircraft LRI repair and testing. You need to obtain the clearance from the national airworthiness authorities to install and operate the equipment and much more. It's not just an buy some sensors beam them by magic onto the aircraft and everyone knows how to deal with it. There is a rat tail entailed to the introduction of a new complex electronic equipment, even if it's already being used by other operators. The effort and penultimately costs required must not be underestimated! And yes it would be nice to see the sensor on the jet, agreed. Unfortunately it is a cost driver that fell victim when cost savings were seeked.

[Southernbear]

Gero, CEO of TrueGrit has said before the Typhoon WILL be getting PIRATE.

[QuiGon]

8 hours ago, Southernbear said:

Gero, CEO of TrueGrit has said before the Typhoon WILL be getting PIRATE.

 

But did he mean the German Typhoon, that they will do first or did he mean later variants of other nations?

[Mirage-4000]

4 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

But did he mean the German Typhoon, that they will do first or did he mean later variants of other nations?

 

According to my understanding, it will be added to the versions of other nations. It makes no sense to include PIRATE in the Germany version.

[QuiGon]

49 minutes ago, Mirage-4000 said:

According to my understanding, it will be added to the versions of other nations. It makes no sense to include PIRATE in the Germany version.

 

That's what I thought as well and that means we won't get PIRATE anytime soon as we will first get a German variant.

Edited September 5, 2021 by QuiGon

[Hummingbird]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:36 AM, Valtime said:

The Luftwaffe will get the PIRATE when they agree to call the aircraft by its real name

 

A Eurofighter cannot have the full capability of the Typhoon! 

 

Well, PIRATE is italian, so... I guess they'd need to call it F-2000

Edited September 9, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Spectre11]

PIRATE is actually designed and developed by a trinational industry consortium (EUROFIRST) comprising Leonardo from Italy and UK and IIRC Indra from Spain. Leonardo Italy is the primary supplier for the equipment. As part of the overall weapon system integration, AIRBUS Germany is the system and equipment design responsible and BAES the installation design authority. 

[Hummingbird]

According to what I've read Leonardo is behind the actual design. Hence why I consider it Italian. 

[Valtime]

Am 9.9.2021 um 05:08 schrieb Hummingbird:

 

Well, PIRATE is italian, so... I guess they'd need to call it F-2000

 

Are the Italian  really calling the Typhoon the F-2000 or maybe EF-2000? I’ve never came across this name, but I’m also not living in Italy.

 

[Hummingbird]

1 hour ago, Valtime said:

Are the Italian  really calling the Typhoon the F-2000 or maybe EF-2000? I’ve never came across this name, but I’m also not living in Italy.

 

 

Yeah that's the official designation I believe. 

 

But I mean, Eurofighter, Typhoon, F-2000 or EF2000, it doesn't really matter IMHO. It's a multinational developed plane afterall, with Germany & Britain being behind most of the design.

[TLTeo]

10 hours ago, Valtime said:

F-2000 or maybe EF-2000

Yes, the Italian Air Force has pretty amusing official designations for each jet. The AMX is officially called the A-11 Ghibli, the Tornado is designated as the A-200, and the Typhoon is the F-2000. Most people call it the Eurofighter though.

[Riojano]

[Southernbear]

My understanding is the PIRATE is in its prelim tests with the Lufftwaffe to be accepted into service in the next year to few years, as in, its been given the go ahead the question is time, or more simply, a question of "when not if"....this is in part what Gero is referring to when he said he wants a "most up to date Eurofighter possible" i.e. what ever they add to the Lufftwaffe version ASSUMING he and his team get the infomation they need, he intends/wants to add it....if the Lufftwaffe gets the PIRATE then he intends to add it...if Airbus brings the EJ200 Thust vectoring engines out of their basement and decides to put it on the plane then he also intends to follow suit. 

My understanding is he plans to do the same for the new Captor-E AESA array they plan to be getting in about 2023-2024 or so as well but of course at the momment will start with the Captor-M

Most probably this is because they intend to use the module as a training module for the 'military' version of DCS? But regardless this is what has been translated from interviews from him in both German and English...

 

I mean hell the Lufftwaffe are only just now getting their first Meteors and we're getting those too so. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Southernbear

[Hummingbird]

Hmm I doubt we will be getting Captor E.