Petrovich sturm misses high with about 55% hit rate

[HC_Official]

+1 this is defo happening, got him to fire a few last night and a lot went high

[Scofflaw]

Not a huge sample size, but I just fired 16 of them and 15 hit.  All single player, all in Syria.

[fargo007]

The issue doesn't occur in SP.

[admiki]

Just did MP flight on our persistent campaign, which is heavily loaded with mods. 13 missiles fired, 13 hits. Max range, dual missiles per run, shooting in steepish dive over the hill, all hits.

[fargo007]

[Nealius]

I find the steep dive to be vital for increasing ATGM accuracy. 

[admiki]

Yeah, but that brings you in real danger of RBS. Besides, you can't go high enough for steep dive if there are AA threats

 

[Picure]

Does anyone know if there is a optimal airspeed for the atgm to be most accurate?

[Razorback]

1 hour ago, Picure said:

Does anyone know if there is a optimal airspeed for the atgm to be most accurate?

if I am not mistaken, the approach speed during an engagement is between 220 and 250 Km/hr

[admiki]

HIgher the speed, longer the range. But I like to start at 150 at 150-200 m above target.

With slight nose down to get fire tone and then keep small reticule just above target speed will creep to about 200 kmh. That way I can fire two missiles in one run.

[zerO_crash]

On 7/27/2021 at 6:30 PM, fargo007 said:

Tacview attached. A very typical 4/8.  

 

In one of the misses you can see the shturm suddenly turn skyward with no movement from my helicopter at all. 

 

Around 13:00, two consecutive misses, both well within range over top of a broadside AAA unit. 

 

You can use the cockpit view to assess how steady I am flying when this occurs. 

Tacview-20210727-103948-DCS-PETROVICH.zip.acmi 1.92 MB · 4 downloads

 

I checked it, it is decent flying, but I will need a track of you attacking targets. As it stands, you really need to have practically zero movement (read full stability), in order to make those hits from around 5km (longest I have are 5.5km, speed + altitude). Get me a recording of you attacking targets, and preferable, just get me a trk. within DCS, so I can actually see the cursors and how steady you hold them. I don`t doubt that you are doing it right, but we can at least lock that out then.

 

You are also flying in formation, so that is a bit different, but in general, you flew well, but that is still too much movement for either Petrovich or a human to hold consistently, given the workings of the sight, esp. at longer ranges. 

 

Here is a flight of mine, a quick mission on a non-clan, non-organized server, have a look at it:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XGp2d3Fia4pElpNt4nOtd4Lbr48q8fum/view?usp=sharing

 

Remember, you can fire the Shturm away with a not fully-stable helicopter, but you need to be pinpoint accurate and stable towards the end of the missile flight (before it hits the target). Also, remember that the more you move, the more energy the missile loses, this really matter for those 5km shots.

 

What I can say is, train, do more training and train some more

Edited August 6, 2021 by zerO_crash

[fargo007]

This occurs repeatably even when I am trimmed out level, all AP channels on, perfectly still and not moving the controls at all.

 

Thanks, but I've already streamed with admiki watching, and I'm flying the EXACT same way he is, and his petrovich hits almost all the time. 

 

It cannot be fixed by those of us having the issue simply doing anything differently. It's all been tried already.

[zerO_crash]

Then post it in the bug-thread with a trk.-file. Let the devs decide.

Edited August 7, 2021 by zerO_crash

[Relics]

I find I have to be at a good attack angle when going in for a strike. Otherwise half the time a tree takes the missile or the missile loses track because of the target getting masked. Also gotta stop giving him a bottle of Vodka first thing in the morning.

 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Relics said:

I find I have to be at a good attack angle when going in for a strike. Otherwise half the time a tree takes the missile or the missile loses track because of the target getting masked. Also gotta stop giving him a bottle of Vodka first thing in the morning.

 

Yeah, I created one mission where the trees always stopped the missile (Petrovitch will fire even if he can't see or hit the target! That might be an issue!).

 

However, with a steady hand, I've gotten three anti-aircraft units in a single attack run using the Shturms... and honestly, I think 55% might be quite accurate for an average gunner in wartime conditions.

[Eldur]

On 7/29/2021 at 6:07 PM, fargo007 said:

The issue doesn't occur in SP.

 

It certainly does. Just had a flight yesterday and out of 8 missiles, only 3 hit, all the others went too long, just above and past the targets.

 

On 8/8/2021 at 10:57 PM, Avimimus said:

However, with a steady hand, I've gotten three anti-aircraft units in a single attack run using the Shturms...

 

Honestly, I now have to wonder how it's possible to redesignate targets quickly enough with Petrovich to make this possible. Still struggling with that, constantly having to undesignate, rescan the area, wait for ages and then finally pick a target from the list, wait until he's set up and then fire the thing on the thing. Rinse and repeat. This takes ages. I could only do 3 shots in one run when not going any faster than you'd be allowed to drive in a play street, literally below ETL.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Eldur

[admiki]

2 hours ago, Eldur said:

 

It certainly does. Just had a flight yesterday and out of 8 missiles, only 3 hit, all the others went too long, just above and past the targets.

 

 

Honestly, I now have to wonder how it's possible to redesignate targets quickly enough with Petrovich to make this possible. Still struggling with that, constantly having to undesignate, rescan the area, wait for ages and then finally pick a target from the list, wait until he's set up and then fire the thing on the thing. Rinse and repeat. This takes ages. I could only do 3 shots in one run when not going any faster than you'd be allowed to drive in a play street, literally below ETL.

 

Do not undesignate. Just tell him to scan again. At 150 kph start, easy to do 2 missiles without even getting into APC range.

[Avimimus]

The closer the scan/designate cross-hair is to the target the faster Petrovitch will see it - if you put the menu cross-hairs directly over the target he'll even skip the target choice menu and lock the target immediately.

[SnuggleFairy]

I got about 90% hit rate with Petrovich right now with the way I engage targets. There are many small things that affect your missile hit chance. Things like dive angle and the way you're coming down on the target. Also where the target is matters. Like if the target is on a slope - that seems to affect Petrovich accuracy for some reason. Also I find that allowing Petrovich to fire at will (pressing up long), improves the hit chance over individually commanding every missile launch. I like to "dive" down onto targets from about 300m altitude, but I have to make sure I reduce collective doing so. If I point my aircraft down onto the target and don't reduce collective, I'd be flying more forward than down even though my sights would be perfectly aligned, and that makes the missiles go high.

[admiki]

14 hours ago, SnuggleFairy said:

I got about 90% hit rate with Petrovich right now with the way I engage targets. There are many small things that affect your missile hit chance. Things like dive angle and the way you're coming down on the target. Also where the target is matters. Like if the target is on a slope - that seems to affect Petrovich accuracy for some reason. Also I find that allowing Petrovich to fire at will (pressing up long), improves the hit chance over individually commanding every missile launch. I like to "dive" down onto targets from about 300m altitude, but I have to make sure I reduce collective doing so. If I point my aircraft down onto the target and don't reduce collective, I'd be flying more forward than down even though my sights would be perfectly aligned, and that makes the missiles go high.

On the contrary, I like to fire myself. Reason for that is that I don't want Petrovich to fire before I stabilize the helicopter.

[SnuggleFairy]

9 minutes ago, admiki said:

On the contrary, I like to fire myself. Reason for that is that I don't want Petrovich to fire before I stabilize the helicopter.

The aircraft needs to be stable before the last few seconds of the missile flight, and it take petrovich ages to get gumball control after I command him, so I find that's plenty of time to stabilize the aircraft and align it properly

[Mr_Blastman]

20 shots 20 misses online this weekend.  He can't hit for crap.  I almost always fire at a hover outside AA range.  This isn't working.  Flying towards a combined AA+SAM emplacement while launching seems like suicide.

 

[admiki]

3 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

20 shots 20 misses online this weekend.  He can't hit for crap.  I almost always fire at a hover outside AA range.  This isn't working.  Flying towards a combined AA+SAM emplacement while launching seems like suicide.

 

Hind was not designed for hovering attacks. Provide track file, but I am guessing you are not in dead stable hover while guiding missile. Ataka can be fired from 7 km, and if you fly at 150-200 you will be safe. You can actually slowly turn while missile is in flight which will make you harder target than if you are hovering.

[Mr_Blastman]

9 hours ago, admiki said:

Hind was not designed for hovering attacks. Provide track file, but I am guessing you are not in dead stable hover while guiding missile. Ataka can be fired from 7 km, and if you fly at 150-200 you will be safe. You can actually slowly turn while missile is in flight which will make you harder target than if you are hovering.

I was up against Gepards when I do not have perfect control in the MI-24 yet.  I have come to find out that Gepards are top of the heap in AAA nastiness in DCS.  I wish there was a feature similar to F4 where we can pull up the unit database while on the map to quick check the specs on whatever target we're looking at--of course, this feature only works when not in the jet.

 

I then hopped in the KA-50 after failing eight times without a single kill and completely wiped the entire airbase on my first try.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Mr_Blastman

[admiki]

27 minutes ago, Mr_Blastman said:

I was up against Gepards when I do not have perfect control in the MI-24 yet.  I have come to find out that Gepards are top of the heap in AAA nastiness in DCS.  I wish there was a feature similar to F4 where we can pull up the unit database while on the map to quick check the specs on whatever target we're looking at--of course, this feature only works when not in the jet.

 

I then hopped in the KA-50 after failing eight times without a single kill and completely wiped the entire airbase on my first try.

 

I hate those things. If you know you are going against those, fire at extreme range and immediately bank slightly to one side. Do not pull on cyclic, just let helicopter turn on it's own. That shouldn't prevent Petrovich from guiding the missile, but should you keep safe from initial AAA fire. Once it hits, start jinking hard and drop to the deck. 

Now that we got Ataka's, it's a lot easier.