I don't like green EEGS and ham

[PicklePicklePickle]

Can someone who knows how to use the EEGS give any tips please. Before the F-16 i flew the F-14 and had no problems with the pipper-on-diamond reticle, worked like a charm. I've been flying the F-16 for months now and while I am competent with all the other (working) systems, I'm embarrassed to say I can't hit anything airborne with the gun. I can maneuver the aircraft to get the other aircraft such that the wingtips touch the funnel lines, but when I fire it doesn't hit. The few that I have hit, it feels like luck. There must be something I am missing, any suggestions?

[Jetguy06]

20 minutes ago, PicklePicklePickle said:

Can someone who knows how to use the EEGS give any tips please. Before the F-16 i flew the F-14 and had no problems with the pipper-on-diamond reticle, worked like a charm. I've been flying the F-16 for months now and while I am competent with all the other (working) systems, I'm embarrassed to say I can't hit anything airborne with the gun. I can maneuver the aircraft to get the other aircraft such that the wingtips touch the funnel lines, but when I fire it doesn't hit. The few that I have hit, it feels like luck. There must be something I am missing, any suggestions?

Do you have a radar lock on the target? If you do, there should be a small circle inside the funnel. Viper pilots call it "The Dot of Death." Fly to put that circle over the target and squeeze the trigger, or as fighter pilots say, "Put the thing on the thing."

[Theodore42]

 

HUD symbiology lesson maybe? Or check out some guns kills you youtube and imitate that. If its a snapshot you might have to lead more than the EEGS anticipates. If you're tracking for a kill but aren't landing bullets remember that the cross in the funnel isn't where you're supposed to aim.

[Frederf]

Normally you set the wingspan of the notional target in the DED. That option isn't enabled yet. I don't know what the singular value is. If actual target is different than entered you'll have to fudge factor it.

 

With radar track the system progresses through levels 3 4 5 real fast and most times you'll be using the radar anyway. Then you'll get the 1g pipper, 9g pipper and the "death dot" solution. Then the funnel doesn't make much difference except as a nice reference to in-plane.

[PicklePicklePickle]

Thanks for the replies. So I had originally read about the lvl5 'death dot' however the problem is I never saw the dot come up. I assumed it was not implemented yet, and was trying to just use the funnel. Yes, I always radar lock.

 

I did some experiments yesterday and I found that if I setup a few targets in single player I can get the dot to come up, and it works exactly as you described, I can hit the target! However, I always play online and for some reason on the server I play the dot doesn't seem to come up(?). I've had issues like this before where the TWS/radar did not work on this server but worked in single player.

 

So at this point it sounds like it is some sort of issue with the server I use, but it is good to actually hit something with the gun for a change! Thanks again.

[Falconeer]

15 hours ago, Jetguy06 said:

 or as fighter pilots say, "Put the thing on the thing."

That's the CCIP bombing reticle 

 

 

Gun pipper changes over time through various levels:

 

EEGS Pippers:

- Level 1 = The gun cross

- Level 2 = Funnel and MGRS lines (no radar lock)

- Level 3 = Radar lock on target. 1G (+) and 9G (-) pipper appear with BATR symbol (BATR is small circle) and T-symbol to calculate for manouvering target 

- Level 4 = Funnel now bends with targets plane of motion, MGRS lines are removed

- Level 5 = BATR symbol grows larger and becomes "Death Dot", put it over target hold for 1/4 seconde to stabilize and pull the trigger

 

Hope this explains it a bit more

 

 

[Jetguy06]

1 hour ago, Falconeer said:

That's the CCIP bombing reticle 

 

 

Gun pipper changes over time through various levels:

 

EEGS Pippers:

- Level 1 = The gun cross

- Level 2 = Funnel and MGRS lines (no radar lock)

- Level 3 = Radar lock on target. 1G (+) and 9G (-) pipper appear with BATR symbol (BATR is small circle) and T-symbol to calculate for manouvering target 

- Level 4 = Funnel now bends with targets plane of motion, MGRS lines are removed

- Level 5 = BATR symbol grows larger and becomes "Death Dot", put it over target hold for 1/4 seconde to stabilize and pull the trigger

 

Hope this explains it a bit more

 

 

Makes sense!! Thanks for the info!!

[Falconeer]

Another technique you can use is to put the target in the funnel, so that both wingtips of the target touch the funnel lines. Then pull the trigger and at the same time pull the target through the funnel. That way you can compensate for not having the precise wing span of your target

[darkman222]

The level 5 pipper (dot) is the only thing that is as precise as the "cross" in the F14. But the thing is twitchy like the pipper in the Hornet was in its early days. It is kinda bugged. It only works if the target is not maneuvering too much and if you are not too fast. I have the feeling it is unreliable over 400 kts, starts to jump around, then disappears.

The difference between MP and SP is that human opponents tend to try outrunning or jinking like crazy if they get locked. Unlinke AI aircraft that will do their nice and steady unrealistic flying which supports the pipper in its current state.

Meanwhile I developed a feeling when the pipper will come up and when it will disappear again. Or better, when to trust it and when not.

I already posted it in the bug section and it is being investigated.

 

EDIT: I watched Wags video above, and it has been ages now when I think I remember the pipper being as stable as in the video. Seems like it got bugged while the F16 is being updated over time.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by darkman222

[SCPanda]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:12 AM, PicklePicklePickle said:

Thanks for the replies. So I had originally read about the lvl5 'death dot' however the problem is I never saw the dot come up. I assumed it was not implemented yet, and was trying to just use the funnel. Yes, I always radar lock.

 

I did some experiments yesterday and I found that if I setup a few targets in single player I can get the dot to come up, and it works exactly as you described, I can hit the target! However, I always play online and for some reason on the server I play the dot doesn't seem to come up(?). I've had issues like this before where the TWS/radar did not work on this server but worked in single player.

 

So at this point it sounds like it is some sort of issue with the server I use, but it is good to actually hit something with the gun for a change! Thanks again.

Could be the bandit is flying fast and is in high aspect with you. In that case, the dot would be "below" your HUD (ie outside of your HUD), which means there is too much lead you need to pull. 

[darkman222]

I cant judge whats happening in @PicklePicklePickle 's case. But have you watched the videos I posted in my thread in the bugs section? No high aspect chase maybe you can call it a high speed chase. But I dont think 500 kts is too fast for a gun solution though.

You can see me pulling 1,5 G the bandit maybe the same. The pipper drives around even below the 9 G line which is clearly not correct.

At second 5 in the video you see the pipper describing a circle around the bottom of the HUD which does look totally wrong as necessary lead for me.

 

Thats why I said I have a feeling when to trust the pipper and when not. But this is not how its supposed to work, I hope. Weird stuff happening I would say every one out of five guns engagement. So it can really happen that you stop believing in your abilities...

 

Track:https://www.dropbox.com/s/iibpqwjmknsvyzb/mobettameta's Dogfight Arena v1.20-20210520-002317 gun pipper1.trk?dl=0

Video:

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by darkman222

[skywalker22]

Some great reading on this theme you can fine here, from 110. page on: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

[skywalker22]

--

  

On 7/25/2021 at 5:46 AM, Frederf said:

Normally you set the wingspan of the notional target in the DED. That option isn't enabled yet. I don't know what the singular value is. If actual target is different than entered you'll have to fudge factor it.

I went through all the ded screens on Chuck`s guide (even those which are still under construction, but none seem to be appropriate for inserting wingspan, based on each screen name. 

[Dragon1-1]

It's on MAN page (LIST, 5), not accessible yet. 

[Spurts]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

I cant judge whats happening in @PicklePicklePickle 's case. But have you watched the videos I posted in my thread in the bugs section? No high aspect chase maybe you can call it a high speed chase. But I dont think 500 kts is too fast for a gun solution though.

You can see me pulling 1,5 G the bandit maybe the same. The pipper drives around even below the 9 G line which is clearly not correct.

At second 5 in the video you see the pipper describing a circle around the bottom of the HUD which does look totally wrong as necessary lead for me.

 

Thats why I said I have a feeling when to trust the pipper and when not. But this is not how its supposed to work, I hope. Weird stuff happening I would say every one out of five guns engagement. So it can really happen that you stop believing in your abilities...

 

You are out of range in that video.  That's why the pipper won't work.

[darkman222]

Sorry, am I missing something here? Why do you want to enter the wingspan for gunnery without target lock? The F16 is not a WW2 aircraft. If the level 5 pipper is working correctly wingspan is irrelevant.

[Falconeer]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

Sorry, am I missing something here? Why do you want to enter the wingspan for gunnery without target lock? The F16 is not a WW2 aircraft. If the level 5 pipper is working correctly wingspan is irrelevant.

 

Besides the above, you also "pull" the target through the funnel while pulling the trigger, therefore you compensate for lack of precise wingspan

 

 

[darkman222]

3 hours ago, Spurts said:

You are out of range in that video.  That's why the pipper won't work.

What do you mean out of range? The ranging reticle line is solid for 1/4 only and the FCR shows 4000 ft when the pipper disappeared.

I can almost throw a stone at him.

[Spurts]

25 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

What do you mean out of range? The ranging reticle line is solid for 1/4 only and the FCR shows 4000 ft when the pipper disappeared.

I can almost throw a stone at him.

Do you see that little arrow sliding around the outside of the circle?  That is the actual range.  It is in the dash for most the vid.  And 4000ft is effectively out of range for a tail aspect shot or a high aspect shot.  The round only has in initial velocity of 3,400ft/s and I promise you it will be going much much slower by the end of that first second meaning range traveled in 1s will be much much lower.  This is why even Wiki lists the effective range as 2,000ft.  

[WHOGX5]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

What do you mean out of range? The ranging reticle line is solid for 1/4 only and the FCR shows 4000 ft when the pipper disappeared.

I can almost throw a stone at him.

The reticule disappears because your target was accelerating away from you. You had the pipper, then your target starts moving beyond 4000 ft and the pipper disappears, then when the target starts pulling G's and you get below 4000 ft, you can see the reticule reappear. And regarding the range of the gun, I think you underestimate how relatively slow bullets are and how quickly they lose speed. The M61 only has a muzzle velocity of about 3,500 ft/s and the bullet weigh about 100g each. That bullet is gonna bleed speed like crazy against the air resistance, especially when the speeds are so high and the mass is so low. That's why the M61's stated max range is about 2000ft. It's not a long range weapon.

[Frederf]

6 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Sorry, am I missing something here? Why do you want to enter the wingspan for gunnery without target lock? The F16 is not a WW2 aircraft. If the level 5 pipper is working correctly wingspan is irrelevant.

Because radar is not always available. Even when it is the funnel makes good amplifying info.

[darkman222]

@Frederf Sure the funnel is an alternative backup system.

 

@Spurts and @WHOGX5 thank you for the explanantion. This is why I like the community here so much. There is always someone giving the right hint.

This brings up another test and a question. It seems like the pipper appears exclusively at 4000 ft distance. Regardless of my own airspeed. (see video below)

 

I must confess I was not fully aware of the short range of the M61. You can see the pipper being displayed although the shot was kinetically impossible at a speed of 800 kts. But in the second test at a speed of 300 kts the pipper disappeared again at a distance greater than 4000 ft. Regardless of my speed. But the bullets were able to hit the target.

 

Question: Is it realistic? Shouldnt the pipper stay visible until there is really no physical possibility for the bullets to hit? I know the second test is unrealistic, but you see that I had to guess where to fire without the pipper. Wouldnt that be a disadvantage to hide the pipper in that case? Or is it just not implemented yet and the pipper should represent if a shot opportunity is kinetically possible or not?

What it is doing right now is stubbornly being displayed when under 4000 ft and hidden at distances over 4000 ft. Why would you do that and take it away from the pilot? A fighter pilot should be able to have a look at the distance in the HUD and judge by himself if the shot is possible or not, right?

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by darkman222

[Frederf]

The PGU-28 round has a minimum velocity requirement for good fuzing against air targets. Bumping the bullet into bandit doesn't do much damage beyond a certain velocity. I think it's about 2800' which is better than the older M56 type rounds of about 1500'. Note the dot at the 4 o'clock position of the range ring. USAF has been using full ring = 12,000' for a long long time. Those might be AG ranges I'm remembering; I see the above showing closer to 3500'. Since velocity is relative I wouldn't but surprised if MCC showed different in range cue distances based on various inputs. E.g. thin air descending head on more range than sea level uphill following.

 

Under real conditions a shot over 4000' is exceptionally long range. 1200' or less is normal. That precision aiming references blank above 4000' doesn't shock me but them being computed out to 12'000' wouldn't surprise me either.

 

Funnel is projected out to I think a certain TOF and not distance. I think it's 2.0s but I'd have to look it up. You can see that out at 4kft it's just a fuzzy blob and doubt such a pipper would improve anything.

 

Unless someone has knowledge otherwise I would assume this is correct.

[WHOGX5]

On 7/28/2021 at 12:41 AM, darkman222 said:

@Frederf Sure the funnel is an alternative backup system.

As a sidenote to this discussion, the funnel is great to have beyond being a backup system. A great thing about the F-16 is that your radar turns off when you enter Dogfight mode. This means that if you just get into a decent firing position you can engage a target without giving away your position, especially when using rounds without tracers. Once you get used to how the funnel behaves and you start doing sweeping shots from aft to fore you can achieve a very high hit rate without even turning your radar on. The F-16 is so small and so easy to lose sight of in a dogfight that you can really use stealth to your advantage.

[darkman222]

To summarize the original question of @PicklePicklePickle :

My observations are: Its not the pilot being poor at air to  air gunnery using the EEGS level 5 pipper, its the pipper itself.  Dont trust the pipper. It is simply unreliable and shows wrong lead as we have it in the current F16.

 

Some time ago I started a thread in the bug section about that topic, where I am having a monologue with myself for quite some time now

 

As I already wrote in the thread. I wont do any further investigations, because it seems random to me. My own speed does not matter, the opponents speed does not matter, the Gs the opponent pulls does not matter for the issue. I hope it will be fixed soon and get rid of at least one the disadvantages in a dogfight you gonna run into in the current F16.

 

Here is the thread:

 

Thats the video I posted in the thread too: And the trackfile: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8navpcpkyqaprtb/mobettameta's Dogfight Arena v1.24-20210730-020910 pipper nonsense to make sense.trk?dl=0

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by darkman222