Special Forces Debate

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

If you want hardcore, then look no further than these bunch

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selous_Scouts

 

These guys were the cream, when modern day Zimbabwe was called Rhodesia.

My uncle was an officer in the BSAP in Rhodesia. Thank God he got out in 1980 when comrade Mugabe took over.

[hassata]

GSG-9 are shiny.

 

Here's our contribution:

 

 

Edited November 26, 2010 by hassata

[FeoFUN]

KGB Troops like Vympel were called "OSNAZ". But i know what you want to say :D

OSNAZ was a general name for the technical and utility units of KGB, which were intended to support special operations. But Vympel was called "gruppa spetsialnogo naznacheniya Vympel" - "special purpose team Vympel" or ""spetsnaz KGB" in general.

 

BTW, slightly childish thread. :)

[mvsgas]

...For example: ask the US Marines (of course USMC are not SpecOps but still...) who is "teh man"... :lol:..

 

USMC is the only US Spec Ops that are not separated from main forces. What I mean is Navy, Army and USAF Spec Ops fall under SOCOM while USMC Special Ops qualified are still under USMC command. So USMC does have Spec ops.

 

P.S.

At least that is the way it was, not sure if it is still that way. According to USSOCOM and MARSOC sites, USMC Spec Ops may have join SOCOM.

 

Anyway, I do agree you can't say which is better, just which one a person may prefer or be more impress by. I like PJ's myself, they can fill you with bullet holes and then patch u up :D

Edited November 26, 2010 by mvsgas

[LordWolf]

A bit more about martial arts..

[mig29]

I just posted what I saw in the documentary. They compared several areas of special force activities and rated Russian Spetsnaz number 1. I know we can never find out who is the best but on the papers (at least in their documentary) they came out on the top.

[bumfire]

My uncle was an officer in the BSAP in Rhodesia. Thank God he got out in 1980 when comrade Mugabe took over.

 

To this day I still cant see what the UK gov and others thought was so great about booting out smith and letting mugabe take over, look at the state of the place now, when it was a once thriving small community, with a great army.

[diveplane]

I don't think it's possible to judge which special unit is "the best" and if such comparisons make sense at all. For example: ask the US Marines (of course USMC are not SpecOps but still...) who is "teh man"... :lol: But I certainly agree that SAS operators are elite.

 

Regarding the Bravo Two Zero. I'm not questioning these men, but I hope you are aware that there are different accounts of this mission (distance, enemies killed etc.) and some serious doubts involved.

 

 

here ryans story on it.

 

Edited November 29, 2010 by diveplane

[genbrien]

Canadian JTF2

 

nuff said :)

[hassata]

here ryans story on it.

 

 

 

This is a decent read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Real-Bravo-Two-Zero-Behind/dp/0304365548

[Yuya6104]

Knights Templar was the best during is time still existice today but changed there order to survive what was left during excuction on Friday 13, 1310 on the stak alive

 

also best asian warriors was from my country Samurai an Japanese ninjia were samurai been existice for mor then 4,500 years an Special samurai known as Japanese ninjia came later in 12th century useing tools that were far advanced to complete there goals had many use for them..

 

Japan histoy my country very old 100,000 B.C. as old as China no one beat those warriors

 

another special warriors from grecce was Spartans 300 against 1million Persions an then was Roman soliders from Italy all greatest warriors on earth..

 

but in Present world now there are no more great solders in the world only copies of who want pretend be like the previews warriors up face to face with enemy an your sword an his sword an bow an show respect an honor then see who wins while slice your enemy down an put coins on the eyes burn his body..in Japan have same thing only dont put coins instead burn his body with his armor an sword an cast his arses to wind where come nature self an free sprit guid newly life to a new world from heaven an earth.

[Succellus]

Knights Templar was the best during is time still existice today but changed there order to survive what was left during excuction on Friday 13, 1310 on the stak alive

 

also best asian warriors was from my country Samurai an Japanese ninjia were samurai been existice for mor then 4,500 years an Special samurai known as Japanese ninjia came later in 12th century useing tools that were far advanced to complete there goals had many use for them..

 

Japan histoy my country very old 100,000 B.C. as old as China no one beat those warriors

 

another special warriors from grecce was Spartans 300 against 1million Persions an then was Roman soliders from Italy all greatest warriors on earth..

 

but in Present world now there are no more great solders in the world only copies of who want pretend be like the previews warriors up face to face with enemy an your sword an his sword an bow an show respect an honor then see who wins while slice your enemy down an put coins on the eyes burn his body..in Japan have same thing only dont put coins instead burn his body with his armor an sword an cast his arses to wind where come nature self an free sprit guid newly life to a new world from heaven an earth.

 

There s much myth for samurais and Romans and etc.

History tells us things goes spinning. Roman where nothing much before Marian reform, Celts wipped Rome twice, second time Rome had to pay 16 tons of gold not to be razed.

And at the end barbarians with very old tactics fell Rome, OK those where end of an empire troops, much like end of the Reich troops mixed with all sort of untrained, unwilling people.

Korea almos wipped Japan, and when the european came Samurai did fall by the dozens on piercing swords, They would fall dead before even reaching Katana range, all the europeen had to do is strech, the most basic fencing move, and the holed armor designed to break upon impact and spread the inercia upon all the body would let the thin blade pass and game over.

Abd before those great realms come persia and other little heart empires that where top at their times.

 

Judging which spec op is bettar then the orther is hard as each spec ops tend to specialize internaly and be chosen by speciality taking acount of the task.

But in modern days we sure have some proven names, SAS, SOCOM, and probably some unheard of that prefer to say in the shadows.

[Yuya6104]

There s much myth for samurais and Romans and etc.

History tells us things goes spinning. Roman where nothing much before Marian reform, Celts wipped Rome twice, second time Rome had to pay 16 tons of gold not to be razed.

And at the end barbarians with very old tactics fell Rome, OK those where end of an empire troops, much like end of the Reich troops mixed with all sort of untrained, unwilling people.

Korea almos wipped Japan, and when the european came Samurai did fall by the dozens on piercing swords, They would fall dead before even reaching Katana range, all the europeen had to do is strech, the most basic fencing move, and the holed armor designed to break upon impact and spread the inercia upon all the body would let the thin blade pass and game over.

Abd before those great realms come persia and other little heart empires that where top at their times.

 

Judging which spec op is bettar then the orther is hard as each spec ops tend to specialize internaly and be chosen by speciality taking acount of the task.

But in modern days we sure have some proven names, SAS, SOCOM, and probably some unheard of that prefer to say in the shadows.

 

 

that is where you is wrong about Samurai an little myth surrounds samurai but remind you that this was very very complex an so well orginzed warriors.. my family my entire family were Samurai an every samurai must keep records of there family an them self my family is 1,100 years old every samurai wirtes a book about them selfs what they have done like recored but more potry an wirteing what they see an experinced.. i have most books my family but there some 100 years old 300 years old 400 years 600 years old another that is 800 years old.. they are in same samurai house my family built gave from father to son like the sword from father to son an to his son..

 

Samurai fell becuase the Emporer the the Shogunate was most powerful lord that in Japan an controled alot Samurai clans was high excutioner himself when first Shogun came powe in 1028 exanded its realem by rageing wars in japan that fathfully Empepor lost all power an Emporer was abonished for so many centuryes till 1700's towards 1877 when Emporer opening the gates again to western people try convert Japanese people into western chlotsing an machines an western life.. Samurai refused this stylean refused give up there swords cause Japanese sword is its soul an his best friend he can never go without his sword if lose his sword he can never have a sword again an create dishonor himself an towards his family for that he take own life Hara-Kiki...

 

Samurai have super stricted rules have fallow it is very diffeant world from all worlds if dont bow show respect you have head cut off on the spot if not poliyr an kind an rude you be killed on the spot every one Japan went by this law even the Samurai..

 

even today same rules apply here Japan only dont kill on the spot but that can lead to that if one commeted a serve crime that is unforgetable or unforgiven..

 

our ways are much diffeant it take forgin people life time to fully understand this country our ways our custem an Culture espacially the todays military an Samurai military..

 

for Japanese Ninja that has many myths the Records are very hard to find cause they not exist or now want to exist only people know about them are great lords an great warloads always higher.. but very little records that they did exist founded there some there weapons used that are now in mussum..

 

i still think medieal times an Fudeal Japan an before that were the finest great warriors that walk the earth can never beat them todays military only dream about pretending like there one them but reailty cant match up to them if saw Samurai since few Familys still exist today that survived like my family our hands are so big built tough weild the sword an take much damage from swords to bows an guns back then..

 

just give an example of how tough Samurai were in 1129 one biggest wars in Japan with 2 clans Hojo clan an Minamoto clan one the samurai was shot by a longbow arrow with tip shape like a (U) stright into horseback Samurai he rip out arrow out his skull an eye an sent that arrow back to the sending stright into the face the Samurai that sent arrow back didnt die but became a a new genreal and adviser to his Lord Minamoto clan..

 

last here a picture of hand print of Lord Tokugawa the Shogunate from 1603

 

Past warriors wwere the Elite warriors on earth an fool can shot a gun but with a sword or arrow is a diffeant thing cause speed energy and eyes an ears an strong muscles weild a sword bow or bow or longbow an training for anyway warrior never ends till end of your life.

 

sorry i use translator in English cause my english very poor

[RIPTIDE]

There s much myth for samurais and Romans and etc.

History tells us things goes spinning. Roman where nothing much before Marian reform, Celts wipped Rome twice, second time Rome had to pay 16 tons of gold not to be razed.

And at the end barbarians with very old tactics fell Rome, OK those where end of an empire troops, much like end of the Reich troops mixed with all sort of untrained, unwilling people.

The fall of the Roman Empire had a lot to do with a lot of things. Slavery, lack of innovation, corruption, nepotism etc. The thing about historical empires was that it was common for capital cities to be wrecked, and then an empire to bounce back rather quickly and exact revenge. It even is relevant to the 20th century. 20 years after Germany was utterly defeated, Germany stood once again as one of the most powerful military machines ever to have stood at that time.

Back to Rome... Rome became great after it left the Republic and turned into an Empire, which came a little after the Marian Reforms. And lets not forget that the Empire stood for 500 years and the Eastern Empire stood for nearly another 1000 after this. To say that Rome was nothing before the Marian reforms is akin to say that England was nothing before Hastings.

[LordWolf]

that is where you is wrong about Samurai an little myth surrounds samurai but remind you that this was very very complex an so well orginzed warriors.. my family my entire family were Samurai an every samurai must keep records of there family an them self my family is 1,100 years old every samurai wirtes a book about them selfs what they have done like recored but more potry an wirteing what they see an experinced.. i have most books my family but there some 100 years old 300 years old 400 years 600 years old another that is 800 years old.. they are in same samurai house my family built gave from father to son like the sword from father to son an to his son..

 

Samurai fell becuase the Emporer the the Shogunate was most powerful lord that in Japan an controled alot Samurai clans was high excutioner himself when first Shogun came powe in 1028 exanded its realem by rageing wars in japan that fathfully Empepor lost all power an Emporer was abonished for so many centuryes till 1700's towards 1877 when Emporer opening the gates again to western people try convert Japanese people into western chlotsing an machines an western life.. Samurai refused this stylean refused give up there swords cause Japanese sword is its soul an his best friend he can never go without his sword if lose his sword he can never have a sword again an create dishonor himself an towards his family for that he take own life Hara-Kiki...

 

Samurai have super stricted rules have fallow it is very diffeant world from all worlds if dont bow show respect you have head cut off on the spot if not poliyr an kind an rude you be killed on the spot every one Japan went by this law even the Samurai..

 

even today same rules apply here Japan only dont kill on the spot but that can lead to that if one commeted a serve crime that is unforgetable or unforgiven..

 

our ways are much diffeant it take forgin people life time to fully understand this country our ways our custem an Culture espacially the todays military an Samurai military..

 

for Japanese Ninja that has many myths the Records are very hard to find cause they not exist or now want to exist only people know about them are great lords an great warloads always higher.. but very little records that they did exist founded there some there weapons used that are now in mussum..

 

i still think medieal times an Fudeal Japan an before that were the finest great warriors that walk the earth can never beat them todays military only dream about pretending like there one them but reailty cant match up to them if saw Samurai since few Familys still exist today that survived like my family our hands are so big built tough weild the sword an take much damage from swords to bows an guns back then..

 

just give an example of how tough Samurai were in 1129 one biggest wars in Japan with 2 clans Hojo clan an Minamoto clan one the samurai was shot by a longbow arrow with tip shape like a (U) stright into horseback Samurai he rip out arrow out his skull an eye an sent that arrow back to the sending stright into the face the Samurai that sent arrow back didnt die but became a a new genreal and adviser to his Lord Minamoto clan..

 

last here a picture of hand print of Lord Tokugawa the Shogunate from 1603

 

Past warriors wwere the Elite warriors on earth an fool can shot a gun but with a sword or arrow is a diffeant thing cause speed energy and eyes an ears an strong muscles weild a sword bow or bow or longbow an training for anyway warrior never ends till end of your life.

 

sorry i use translator in English cause my english very poor

 

ばか、なぜここにこの金を与える。。。

 

Anyhow, we're talking about special forces here, not warriors. In Feudal Japan, that would probably account to Ninjutsu and thus follow us to todays soke Masaaki Hatsumi.

[bumfire]

Lordwolf, I dont know about you, but I would count Samurai as Special Forces, as they were the creme de-la creme of japanese fighting troops.

 

Although, hundreds of years ago, but they would still fall into the category of Special forces, as they were giving special tasks that ordinary troops couldnt or wouldnt accomplish.

 

That's just my opinion, I dont know if they would actually be classed as Special Forces by any military historian ?

[FanBoy2006.01]

Just logged in and decided to give my own two cents without reading the other posts.

 

Certain special forces will be better than others on certain areas (Like Savannah or Arctic regions.). So the argument of who is the best overall is very problematic and complex.

 

 

I got a question for all here. Which special forces unit do you want to face in combat! I do not want to face any!

 

Hell I do not want to face anybody which uses competent police or infantry tactics!

[LordWolf]

Lordwolf, I dont know about you, but I would count Samurai as Special Forces, as they were the creme de-la creme of japanese fighting troops.

 

Although, hundreds of years ago, but they would still fall into the category of Special forces, as they were giving special tasks that ordinary troops couldnt or wouldnt accomplish.

 

That's just my opinion, I dont know if they would actually be classed as Special Forces by any military historian ?

 

Heavy infantry does not count as special forces. Yes, there were ashigaru and other peasants that were armed, and i'm honored to see that you classify samurai as special forces, because their skill was astonishing and far far superior to anyone with swords, but tacticly, you couldn't use them as any kind of spec ops, they were the punchline in frontal combat, they used naginatas, were trained, and inflicted a heavy loss in enemy ranks.

[bumfire]

Yes in todays age, the term SF wouldnt be correct for them, but back then, wouldnt they of been the special forces of their day ? since they were the top soldiers of whoever's army.

 

I dont know much about Samurais, only what I have seen or read, which isnt much, but they always seem to be very well respected and very capable.

 

Then there is the film 7 samurai, which depicts them as thieves and scoundrels if I recall, so I dont know what to think, and cant get a true picture of what samurais really were like in real life.

Edited December 1, 2010 by bumfire

[zakobi]

When i think about it, i actually hold Police units like S.W.A.T. a little higher than other Spec Ops units. Why? The military guys usually are allowed to kill the enemy when sighted, but police units are afaik only allowed to kill if other non-suspects life is in immediate danger.

 

Yeah i've played SWAT 4 :D

[WynnTTr]

I'd love to see how a SWAT team performs in the jungle, or long range rec missions. :)

 

And samurai were the elite of feudal Japan. Not only in the military but also in social status. But they weren't what I'd call spec ops. If anything, I'd say they're closer to marines or rangers. I would say the ninja comes closer to what modern day spec ops does. Highly specialised training and under the radar type missions.

[Wags94]

You can't really compare all special forces and pick a best one. For the most part, they have different specialties. They are special forces after all. Recon does recon, underwater demolitions do underwater demolitions, airborne jumps out of planes, and certain groups try to find a medium that does all of the above. It's all variable, and there really can't be a "best."

 

Comparing special forces of the same duty is just like athletics. One guy may break a world record one day, and he may be labelled the "best," but at some point somebody will catch up to him. The same thing is with special forces units.

 

However, I believe that the more effective unit is the one with the most combat experience. That being said, the special forces of the US and Western Europe stand out better than others, in my opinion. :)

[diveplane]

This is a decent read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Real-Bravo-Two-Zero-Behind/dp/0304365548

 

thx

[hassata]

You're welcome.

 

The interesting thing I got from reading this book and other material relating to the subject is that there is a 'class' backstory. Before Bravo Two Zero, it was the officers who wrote 'sanctioned' history type books about the SAS. McNab was a 'lower class' type (by silly English standards), a 'lad' with a Cypriot father iirc, who wrote a book without clearance, and notwithstanding the fact that the officer upper-class types told him not to. The Real Bravo Two Zero is sort of the upper class, through a 'proper' officer from the Territorial SAS, getting back at MacNab. Still the RB2Z reads as the more authentic account. I think Ryan has also gone on record saying McNab's version is hyperbole. I still enjoyed reading McNab's book, because it gives some nice insights into recruitment, selection etc.

 

P.S. You could argue that as a Spec Ops type, McNab was trained to break the rules, so of course he wasn't going to listen to the powers that be and not publish. He is still ostracized by the Regiment iirc, but is now a millionaire, so wgaf?

Edited December 2, 2010 by hassata

[bumfire]

As far as I am aware, both Chris Ryans and Andy McStab's versions were both full of fanciful bullshit for want of a better word. 200+ dead iraqis, known to be a bullshit figure pulled out of the air to make the patrol look like they actually did something worthwhile, then their is Chris Ryans little hero move where he supposedly took out 2 trucks full of soldiers when he was alone, supposedly something else that never happened, the list goes on.

 

However, that doesnt take away from Ryans extreme tab for 200 miles in freezing conditions alone in the desert, that initself needs to be recognised as a serious feat of human endurance.

 

But in the end, he and a few others are now Persona Non Grata at the regiments barracks in hereford due to the bullshit and the unwelcome publicity they brought on the regiment after they went ahead with their books and photo oppertunities.

 

Atleast the money they got will help Andy McStab keep all his new implanted teeth in tip top shape :)

Edited December 3, 2010 by bumfire